[ArmandGrillet]

Finally. Germany combines some of the worst aspects of the US (credit ranking, complicated abortion process, private healthcare if you want decent treatments) with the worst aspects of Europe (low digitalization, high taxation, recursive federalism: within the country and within the EU).

A country like the Netherlands has its own issues (mainly housing) but doesn't have the myriad of pain points you can find in Germany like Schufa, anti-customer contract rules, or public healthcare inaccessible despite paying more than 400€/month for it as a single individual.

[ciclotrone]

I find it quite disturbing that high taxation is seen as a negative aspect of Europe. I lived in Italy, France and Germany, and I enjoyed public healthcare and education of very high standard at very affordable prices, and free in the limit that one cannot afford to pay for them.

As a relative of a person with a chronic disease I can tell you that on the one hand if we are not bankrupt it is because of public healthcare, and on the other I'm proud of contributing through my taxes so that anybody in need can have the same treatment irrespective of their economic situation.

[mk89]

Maybe nitpicking here, but healthcare is not financed with your taxes in Germany - it's financed by statutory health insurance (SHI) and private health insurance (PHI). The State "simply" sets the framework/legislation/etc. so that it doesn't get wild (like probably it is in the USA). [0]

In Italy it's the state/regions that take your taxes and pay the health system.

[0]: https://www.bundesgesundheitsministerium.de/fileadmin/Dateie...

[formerly_proven]

High taxes with no matching value behind them is undeniably a negative.

[dkural]

There is no capital gains tax - Germany has less progressive taxation than the United States! VAT in general is a regressive tax, that many EU countries inordinately rely on. A US-citizen has to pay taxes no matter where they reside, but the wealthier citizens of EU countries can easily evade taxes by domiciling themselves in various tax havens around the EU. Germany does a very poor job collecting taxes from the highest earners.

[kmlx]

> I find it quite disturbing that high taxation is seen as a negative aspect of Europe.

after receiving the same services for no or minimal tax i also find it very disturbing that people still think high taxation is necessary.

[RHSeeger]

> I find it quite disturbing that high taxation is seen as a negative aspect of Europe.

High tax rates and, in fact, ANY taxes area a negative. However, that negative is (hopefully) offset by the positives that the things those taxes go to pay for provide.

[throw10920]

> I find it quite disturbing

Typical emotional manipulation...

> that high taxation is seen as a negative aspect of Europe. I lived in Italy, France and Germany, and I enjoyed public healthcare and education of very high standard at very affordable prices, and free in the limit that one cannot afford to pay for them.

...coupled with an utterly illogical (and factually incorrect[1]) non-argument.

You can have these things without high taxation, if the system that implements them is efficient. It's not.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39402957

[Beijinger]

" I'm proud of contributing through my taxes so that anybody in need can have the same treatment irrespective of their economic situation."

It is a big world my friend. And if millions come to use these services but don't pay in, the services get thinner and thinner. 1 Million Ukrainians came to German. Less than 25% have a job. The rest is financed by the taxpayer. Money, Rent, Health insurance...

Edit:

It reminds me of a Third Reich joke. An old woman goes into a map shop and looks at a globe.

She asks the sales person: What is this big blue land on the globe?

The sales person says: This is the USA.

Old lady: And this huge Red area, what is this?

The sales person says: This is the Soviet Union.

Old lady: And this tiny brown spot, what is this?

The sales person says: This is our Third Reich.

Old lady: Does the Fuehrer know this?

-----------

I hope you get what I am trying to say.

[fabian2k]

That's an overly negative and hyperbolic view. Nothing is entirely wrong here, but you're painting every single point in the most negative way possible.

You can certainly argue about how good the healthcare system is in the end, but it isn't categorically inaccessible. And if you pay 400 EUR/month you're earning enough money and can choose the private health system if you prefer that.

The credit ranking also works in very different ways than in the US, so I wouldn't compare them directly. I'm not sure what you mean by anti-consumer contract rules.

[panki27]

While choosing to be in the private system is an option, it only "makes sense" if you make at least 70k€ a year, so definitly not for everyone.

The issue is not getting in - but getting back out before you retire and don't have enough available income to pay the rates anymore.

[tietjens]

Hello from Germany. No lies detected. Don’t forget about a working culture where process always ranks above results, and leaders commonly lack confidence to make pragmatic decisions.

[odiroot]

> Don’t forget about a working culture where process always ranks above results,

And where tenure ranks above skills or experience. Especially if unions are involved.

[anovikov]

Well, this working culture makes result slow and expensive, and as a result, in many cases uncompetitive, but it does a good job of avoiding fuckups and while slow and expensive, things usually get done predictably, on time and on budget. Which probably makes it better than American reckless "fake it till you make it" approach in most of the complex projects.

[sofixa]

> Europe (low digitalization, high taxation, recursive federalism: within the country and within the EU).

A decent chunk of those are exclusive to Germany, or at least far from the norm in the EU or Europe in general. For instance digitalisation varies wildly between countries, but Germany is definitely one of the most embarrassingly behind countries. Taxation also varies (e.g. Bulgaria and Estonia have flat income taxes). Federalism isn't a thing in most European countries too.

[jonp888]

I'm a bit surprised you would consider the credit system the same as the US. It doesn't have the bonkers bit of the US system where you have to take great care to be in a small amount of debt even if you don't need to be, in order to "prove" your creditworthiness so that you can be in a lot of debt later.

[bombcar]

Being in debt to build credit is mostly a fairy tale told by the companies - just having an open line of credit is all you need to provide account age. You don’t need to use it or carry a balance (you may need to use it periodically to keep it open but that can be charge/pay off immediately).

[kevin_thibedeau]

It's starting to creep into public services. You couldn't even get easy access to Covid stimulus funds without a credit card. Debit cards were rejected despite providing the same level of ID verification.

[usr1106]

German "public" healthcare is much more accessible and has much better coverage than its Finnish counterpart.

Despite Finland reapeatedly making headlines (including on HN) about being a Nordic welfare state.

Germans are typically complaining from a high level.

Source: Members of the wider family living in both countries. Some over 80 and needing a lot of healthcare services.

(I hear general practioners can be a problem in poorer areas in the East. My experiences are from a prosperous area in the West.)

[graemep]

> Germans are typically complaining from a high level.

Do Germans share the British tendency to think everything is better in the rest of the world?

As an immigrant (as a child, admittedly) and someone who has lived and worked elsewhere and, more importantly, does not completely share this aspect of the culture, I find British pessimism and self-flagellation really, really annoying.

[oarfish]

A finnish colleague once told me that the Finns just don't go to the doctor unless something falls off. Any accuracy to that?

[robert_foss]

This is entirely correct. Having lived both in North America and Sweden this is a very accurate description.

[meroes]

400€ for medical, dental, and optical combined you mean. And less for students. And you conveniently leave out their 4 week minimum vacation time/year. (my sis and her BIL just moved from there, and help people move there).

Digitalization is really behind yes, and homeownership is even more expensive than the US. But rent is almost half the US and groceries are cheaper. And instead of subsidizing full sized pickup trucks and EVs, you get Audis, VWs, etc for cheaper.

[discopicante]

Now compare median income of Germany vs US. Economic opportunity is fading away in Germany. Also, pretty much all cars - especially Audis, VWs, etc are (20-30%) more expensive in Germany vs US.

[moi2388]

True, but in the Netherlands it’s the government itself which sells all of your data, literally everything from your house, it’s price, location, blueprints, satellite images, what you paid for it, previous owners, your car, and even your government ID number if you are registered as a company, just to many a couple.

And yes, you obviously have to pay to get your own data.

[WarOnPrivacy]

> or public healthcare inaccessible despite paying more than 400€/month for it as a single individual.

This is super close to my early 2010's ACA experiences. Even when a poor earner could scrape up enough to buy a plan, the deductible made it unusable.

Policy pricing was exorbitant for $12k/yr earners but dropped enough for 22k/yr that a few plans were buyable. The challenge was coming up with another $somethingthousand to cover the deductible.

There was a sharp drop-off in plan pricing at 32k/yr and some mid-grade plans were in reach. IIRC deductibles were lower on those plans and they may have been usable (or nearly so).

What struck then. Of the news orgs cheering/damning the ACA, zero of them ever covered how pricing dropped as income rose. I assume that's because pricing was only ever disclosed to folks who completed the lengthy signup process - and news folks found it too daunting to experiment with.

[fabian2k]

There are no real deductibles in German public healthcare, though some areas are excluded almost entirely like glasses and certain dental work. The cost is also scaled to income, the 400 EUR (which is only 50% of the cost, the other 50% pays the employer) here are what you pay when you earn ~70k EUR per year and are essentially the maximum for public health care. So it is much cheaper if you earn less money.

One of the main current criticisms of the system is that it can be very difficult to get appointments with specialists compared to people with private health insurance.

[interactivecode]

Healthcare is kinda shit in The Netherlands. Long waiting lists even for simple things. Never actually prescribing medication but instead over prescribing paracetamol. Only being able to get a set amount for appointments regardless of actual need.

Sure if you’re in a car crash and urgently need care they will help you without going bankrupt but anything less urgent good luck getting an appointment this week / month / year

[notaustinpowers]

Does The Netherlands not have Urgent Care facilities like the US? I feel like those for of facilities could handle the issues of a lack of access for simple or menial things. I had to get a cyst lanced a few weeks ago and I just walked into an Urgent Care by my house and was in and out in about an hour with no appointment. I think it was about $180 since I didn't have insurance.

[anonzzzies]

I am dutch and have lived in quite a few countries in the eu and se asia: I would prefer to never have to deal with NL healthcare services again compared to other countries. And I have been (unfortunately) been in hospitals, a lot. Since the 90s NL is striving to become little USA policy wise and this is still getting worse. It’s a shit show.

[karpour]

This, not nearly as bad in the US, but a mess of private insurances.

[miken123]

> A country like the Netherlands has its own issues (mainly housing) but doesn't have the myriad of pain points you can find in Germany like Schufa

In the Netherlands we have BKR, which is less all-encompassing than SCHUFA, but also needed to be fined before giving proper right to access under the GDPR: https://edpb.europa.eu/news/national-news/2020/national-cred...

[oytis]

Is Netherlands healthcare better? From what I've heard from people having lived in both countries, German healthcare is more accessible. E.g. in Netherlands you can't see a specialist doctor unless you convinced your GP you absolutely have to - which can be hard at times.

[jacquesm]

I'm 58 and not exactly in the best of health. I've had to rely on healthcare in NL quite a few times over the last 20 years or so and all of those were serious cases. I have nothing to complain about, but that's n=1. To increment that n a bit: I know lots of people here and almost all of them have had some health issues over the years and the vast majority of those have been dealt with in a serious and reasonably effective manner.

Where NL is utterly ineffective is when it comes to vague symptoms. Until it is perfectly clear what is wrong you're going to be seriously frustrated because the diagnostic machinery isn't really all that effective, when in other countries they'd spend a fortune to find out what's wrong with you in NL unless it's 100% clear you're going to have a hard time getting the care that you need.

I blame Calvijn, NL seems to have a misplaced sense of reduced expression of emotion resulting in an expectation to tough things out rather than to deal with them and for some reason doctors seem to see complaints without a direct relatable cause as an attack of hysterics rather than as something to investigate. If you come from a different background you're going to find this a very difficult thing to deal with.

[javajosh]

>low digitalization

Given that everyone uses IBAN, and it works great, I strongly disagree.

>private healthcare if you want decent treatments

Your mileage may vary, but I was very impressed with the speed and ease of acquiring healthcare under a public plan. The lack of paperwork for seeing a new doctor is astonishing. The lack of copays, SOBs, and all that is like a breath of fresh air, and is worth copying in the US. Heck I once saw a doctor for something and simply gave my card, and saw the doctor in the next hour, and she decided I needed an ultrasound...and did the ultrasound in 5 minutes herself. In the US, this would have been a multi-week ordeal with multiple rounds of paperwork and visits to different offices.

My wife also had a C-section at a Berlin hospital and the care was competent and 100% covered by our public insurance. In the US couples requiring a C-section can expect $20k+ of debt.

[jamesmunns]

Low digitalization isn't just payment - it's also needing to fill in paper forms, or making in-person visits to government and business offices.

I've been living in Germany for about a decade, and it is still behind in many of these items from when I left the US, and having a friend that recently moved from Germany to NL, he was blown away at how convenient and just not-hostile so many day to day interactions with governments and businesses were.

Like - big picture, I'm very happy in Germany, but certain things are still very archaic and sometimes needlessly so.

[Bayart]

My impression coming from France, which I never thought of as particularly progressive on the technological front, is that Germany is full of odd, idiosyncratic archaisms.

[ffsm8]

> public healthcare inaccessible despite paying more than 400€/month for it as a single individual.

That's a pretty new thing though (been getting worse for the last 10 yrs). And the person responsible for the legislature that caused this change is the current health minister.

Also... 400€? It's a percentage of your salary. And you're omitting that the employer pays the same amount, so you're effectively paying 800€ at the very least.

[asymmetric]

> Also... 400€? It's a percentage of your salary. And you're omitting that the employer pays the same amount, so you're effectively paying 800€ at the very least.

Not everybody is employed.

[generic92034]

> And the person responsible for the legislature that caused this change is the current health minister.

Could you please explain that a bit more?

[carlosjobim]

> you're effectively paying 800€ at the very least.

That makes it worse! Not better.

[Unfrozen0688]

low digitalization, high taxation

Sweden is highly digitalized, we pay on our phones, pay taxes on our phones, do government stuff on phone or webbrowser. No stores do cash anymore (also a negative)

High taxes is a positive if used right

[miroljub]

Sweden is a low tax land compared to Germany. In the past, it was known for high taxes, but one could argue that this progress came together with the tax reduction in the last decades.

[albert180]

That's utter bullshit. Your quality of care in the hospital is exactly the same as with public health insurance. Also sometimes private insurance is even worse when it comes to addiction and psychological treatments

[hocuspocus]

You're treated the same in big hospitals but when I was in Berlin, private vs public meant I could get an appointment at a dermatologist tomorrow instead of in two months.

[tietjens]

This is not true. Private insurance means better care in hospitals in Germany. Better access to appointments, choice of head/experienced doctors, even can mean better rooms.

[ArmandGrillet]

Just open Doctolib and tell me it's the same when looking for any kind of doctor. The difference in waiting time is 3 months, bare minimum.

[mk89]

> private healthcare if you want decent treatments > public healthcare inaccessible

What do you mean? I am not sure what you mean by decent treatments.

> Schufa

There is some change happening there, especially now that the EU Justice Court ruled against credit scoring institutions (they break GDPR, etc.). Very slowly, as usual, but it might happen. (Also the current governement is planning changes.)