[ciclotrone]

I find it quite disturbing that high taxation is seen as a negative aspect of Europe. I lived in Italy, France and Germany, and I enjoyed public healthcare and education of very high standard at very affordable prices, and free in the limit that one cannot afford to pay for them.

As a relative of a person with a chronic disease I can tell you that on the one hand if we are not bankrupt it is because of public healthcare, and on the other I'm proud of contributing through my taxes so that anybody in need can have the same treatment irrespective of their economic situation.

[mk89]

Maybe nitpicking here, but healthcare is not financed with your taxes in Germany - it's financed by statutory health insurance (SHI) and private health insurance (PHI). The State "simply" sets the framework/legislation/etc. so that it doesn't get wild (like probably it is in the USA). [0]

In Italy it's the state/regions that take your taxes and pay the health system.

[0]: https://www.bundesgesundheitsministerium.de/fileadmin/Dateie...

[formerly_proven]

High taxes with no matching value behind them is undeniably a negative.

[Nextgrid]

Yes, that's my problem with high taxation, as someone who got burnt by it by virtue of living and paying taxes in the UK.

I don't mind paying my fair share of tax if it means I get good value out of it, but the state of our healthcare here means that in practice the public healthcare system is no longer fit for purpose, so we are being forced to pay for a system that doesn't work and end up having to go private (and thus pay again) when we do need timely healthcare.

I am generally in favor of fair, progressive taxation to ensure everyone has a good social safety net, but the taxation should be fair (it's no longer the case in the UK, since tax brackets haven't been adjusted for inflation) and the services paid for by those taxes should provide good value.

The danger with services funded by taxes as opposed to a private enterprise operating in a free market is that private enterprises are bound by competitive pressure - if they are delivering terrible service and stuffing their pockets with the money, you are free not to do business with them and a potential competitor (that stuffs their pockets a little less) can come along and get your business instead.

With tax-funded services, this pressure doesn't exist, so there's no incentive for politicians (and everyone else in the value chain) to deliver good service, since people generally can't opt out of taxes. This means that even if a service is currently good, there's no guarantee it will remain so since the pressure for it to remain isn't there. Thus, when you see high taxation, it's reasonable to be worried whether the service provided by those taxes is any good and whether it will remain so in the future.

[mcmcmc]

Unless you want to get into the nitty gritty of economic policy analysis and measuring market externalities, value of public goods is pretty subjective. A healthy person might not see much value in public healthcare and a single adult with no kids might not care about education. Just because you don’t value something in the same way doesn’t mean it’s not highly valued by the people who voted on and implemented the policies.

[mschuster91]

> High taxes with no matching value behind them

That is not the case for Germany. We have - even with all its shortcomings - a decent education system that's largely free and accessible for everyone, a decent healthcare system, a decent public transport system on local, regional and federal system, and a very decent social security network that covers unemployment, pension and elderly care.

The US in contrast has neither: parents have to pay five digits worth of money just for the birth of a child, pay through their nose for insurance, public schools are horribly underfunded, universities require six digits worth of debt, there's no high-speed rail worth the name, if you're unemployed you better have some savings, you have to take care about your 401k, and the best way if you need elderly care is to off yourself with a gun.

The only thing where the US actually is in front of Germany is allowing you to get a gun to off yourself. Here in Germany, it's almost impossible to own a gun, so people love to off themselves by jumping in front of a train, creating a huge mess for everyone else.

[breather]

Ah that's where the much higher quality of life kicks in.

[alexwhb]

Agreed. Additionally taxation in our modern Fiat currencies is a farce, since the central banks can literally take as much buying power as they want from you. Taxation is literally just an illusion to make you feel like you are directly paying for government services.The real taxation is inflation.

[dkural]

There is no capital gains tax - Germany has less progressive taxation than the United States! VAT in general is a regressive tax, that many EU countries inordinately rely on. A US-citizen has to pay taxes no matter where they reside, but the wealthier citizens of EU countries can easily evade taxes by domiciling themselves in various tax havens around the EU. Germany does a very poor job collecting taxes from the highest earners.

[kmlx]

> I find it quite disturbing that high taxation is seen as a negative aspect of Europe.

after receiving the same services for no or minimal tax i also find it very disturbing that people still think high taxation is necessary.

[0xFF0123]

Where?

[RHSeeger]

> I find it quite disturbing that high taxation is seen as a negative aspect of Europe.

High tax rates and, in fact, ANY taxes area a negative. However, that negative is (hopefully) offset by the positives that the things those taxes go to pay for provide.

[throw10920]

> I find it quite disturbing

Typical emotional manipulation...

> that high taxation is seen as a negative aspect of Europe. I lived in Italy, France and Germany, and I enjoyed public healthcare and education of very high standard at very affordable prices, and free in the limit that one cannot afford to pay for them.

...coupled with an utterly illogical (and factually incorrect[1]) non-argument.

You can have these things without high taxation, if the system that implements them is efficient. It's not.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39402957

[Beijinger]

" I'm proud of contributing through my taxes so that anybody in need can have the same treatment irrespective of their economic situation."

It is a big world my friend. And if millions come to use these services but don't pay in, the services get thinner and thinner. 1 Million Ukrainians came to German. Less than 25% have a job. The rest is financed by the taxpayer. Money, Rent, Health insurance...

Edit:

It reminds me of a Third Reich joke. An old woman goes into a map shop and looks at a globe.

She asks the sales person: What is this big blue land on the globe?

The sales person says: This is the USA.

Old lady: And this huge Red area, what is this?

The sales person says: This is the Soviet Union.

Old lady: And this tiny brown spot, what is this?

The sales person says: This is our Third Reich.

Old lady: Does the Fuehrer know this?

-----------

I hope you get what I am trying to say.

[mousetree]

As a German who pays a lot in taxes each year, I’m more than happy for those taxes to support our Ukrainian friends who are refugees during this terrible situation

[lastdong]

It's important to remember that Ukrainian individuals in Germany make up just 1.2% of the population, the majority of whom are war refugees.

And while 0.9% can be treated just as a number, each one of these individuals has a unique story and deserves our empathy and understanding.

[0] https://www.osw.waw.pl/en/publikacje/analyses/2023-08-25/ukr...).

[illiac786]

The one I have seen are all young women and kids. They will cause not even a fraction of the health care costs a 70 or 80 year old German generates. I can't find this stat but basically it's exponential, one generates more health care costs in the last ten years of its life than during its entire previous life, on average.