The Oxford Comma and the Internet (2013)

[murphyslab]

> Throw in the Oxford comma and George has become a policeman: “Through the window she saw George, a policeman, and several onlookers”.

The problem here might also be that of artificially limiting the solution to commas. We have alternative or better punctuation available to demarcate the interrupting thought. One could emphasize the relationship better either with an em dash or with parentheses:

“Through the window she saw George — a policeman — and several onlookers.”

“Through the window she saw George (a policeman) and several onlookers.”

In text either of those could better express the different emphasis which verbally would be conveyed by a shift in the speaker's tone.

[stouset]

Since we’re being pedantic, canonically you aren’t supposed to separate an em dash with spaces. I assume that’s because typographically it already sets the parenthetical somewhat farther apart than a regular space would.

“Through the window she saw George—a policeman—and several onlookers.”

[vcg3rd]

The problem isn't the Oxford comma. The problem is lazy--or possibly rapid, if one is generous--writing and editing (if any). If the use or absence of a comma causes ambiguity, it's probably best to rewrite the sentence.

I believe it was Orwell who wrote a friend: "I am sorry this letter is so long. I didn't have time to make it shorter."

[GrumpySloth]

Blaise Pascal, several centuries earlier.

[gerdesj]

Well, if we are going to be authoritative then we might like to ... well:

"I believe it was Orwell who wrote [to] a friend: "

... soz, you are probably left pondian and have a habit of writing your friends. I like to get all transitive and write to mine.

[calf]

Most analyses focus on ambiguity/inconsistency of ,/and with other ways to read the same sentence, but I've found it interesting to focus merely on the grammar of serial lists alone:

  b and c // binary operator

  a and b and c // associativity

  a, b and c // abbreviation of the first 'and'

  a, b, and c // thus, the ", and" is arguably redundant

Starting with 'and' as a binary conjunction, the above have a sort of notational consistency in that the Oxford comma would be redundant.

  a, b, c // comma-separated list

  a, b, and c // the additional 'and' functioning as a kind of terminator/sentinel symbol, it is intentionally redundant.

But starting with ',' to denote a proper sequence, the 'and' becomes redundant.

It's not that redundancy is bad (redundancy can improve robustness against errors). But the above shows that even ignoring what a/b/c are children or cats or partial clauses, there are some interesting language questions to wonder about. Now I'm imagining flipping the lists around:

  a, and b, c, d, ...
  a and b, c, d, ...

I find this curious..

[gerdesj]

From OP: “She lives with her two children, a cat and a dog.”

The clause defines a list of type children, size of two, relationship: "her children". The correct punctuation character following a definition is usually : followed by object instantiation. Ideally we would flesh out the full structure to include "lives with" too.

lol etc. However we can avoid ambiguity with:

"She lives with her two children and a cat and a dog."

No need for any funkiness or whatevs. Keep it simple kids! the: "... and a <thing>" idiom can be repeated as much as you like without fiddling with commas.

[wolverine876]

But what if there is a goldfish too? Someday, you'll need a comma-delimited list.

The only rule is to be clear and consistent.

[bfLives]

The fact that, at the time of writing, all of the comments on this post are about the Oxford comma rather than the actual thesis of the article goes a long way to proving its point.

[Stratoscope]

Even though the Oxford comma has fallen out of fashion, there are a few cases where you really need it. My favorite example is the old joke:

There are two hard problems in computer science: naming things, cache invalidation, and off by one errors.

Leave out the comma and it makes a mess of things:

There are two hard problems in computer science: naming things, cache invalidation and off by one errors.

Don't take my word for it. Read both versions out loud, pausing for each comma, and not pausing where the comma was removed.

[sov]

There are two hard problems in computer science: cache invalidation, naming things and off by one errors.

[hunter2_]

When reading a written work aloud: is it typical that the decision to pause before the last item is determined by the Oxford comma (or lack thereof)? Personally, I pause there regardless, for the same duration that I pause between items throughout the rest of the series.

[russellbeattie]

I went to college for journalism and had to memorize the AP Style Guide cover-to-cover. We got marked down for any violation of its rules in our writing, including the Oxford Comma. Repeated violations were usually mocked publicly.

My lifelong avoidance of it verges on the Pavlovian. I don't think I could start using it if I tried - just the thought makes me shudder.

[wolverine876]

> -

I see you placed spaces around your em dash, which is the AP way. Which I'm using to segue to this completely off-topic question, because you actually know these things: I see you did not use a proper em dash (I don't judge). Does the AP Style Manual see that as an em dash, different than an en dash and from a hyphen, or is it just a dash? I don't think the Style Manual ever uses the term em dash and doesn't necessarily differentiate. What would your journalism professor say?

I know, I know - who cares? I do!

[dang]

Discussed at the time:

The Oxford Comma and The Internet - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5247718 - Feb 2013 (43 comments)

[Crespyl]

It's funny that even in 2013 people were already complaining that articles sounded like AI.

[tom_]

Worth your time, and not - I don't think - unrelated: https://www.ftrain.com/wwic

[bitwize]

The Oxford comma is a must, and here's why:

"The U.S. President, a racist, and a misogynist." (Barack Obama, David Duke, Andrew Tate)

"The U.S. President, a racist and a misogynist." (Donald Trump)

[foobar1962]

I'd write that using a colon instead of the first comma, thus:

"The U.S. President: a racist and a misogynist." (Donald Trump)

[robertlagrant]

Dang, could we change the title to "The Oxford Comma, and the Internet (2013)" please.

[Stratoscope]

Why? That wouldn't be an Oxford comma, it would be a bogus comma. The title is fine as it is.

[CapitalistCartr]

"I'd like to thank my parents, Ayn Rand and God."

[NoboruWataya]

"I'd like to thank my mother, Ayn Rand, and God."