ASML dethrones Applied Materials, becomes largest fab tool maker

[bee_rider]

It is a bit of an odd article, they spend half of it describing this as a remarkable turn of events, and the other half describing why it isn’t really an apples-to-apples comparison and how the companies aren’t in direct competition.

[Handprint4469]

The clickbaity titles are leaking into the beginning of their articles.

[nn3]

Relevant HN comment:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18463181

Apparently their software development processes are terrible.

[lnxg33k1]

I've lived in NL for a while, few years, changed few companies, it's a place where processes are more important than actual code quality, where people stay in the same job for 10-15 years and everything below that is seen as a bad thing, people is hired for the culture primarily, having awareness of software principles is really worthless. I ran away as the last company I interviewed with, after solving a coding puzzle in 30 seconds, finishing in 15 mins something which had to take 45 mins, asked "Are you available to come at the office on Friday for company parties?". So I can only have nightmares about software practices in NL companies

I've seen files with 13k lines of if/else/switch, how do you test that shit .-.

[jessriedel]

Tbc, based on the comment that looks to be driven almost completely by the fact that they are making a tiny number of incredibly expensive bespoke machines, so they can't just keep extra machines lying around to do unit tests with (both because each machine is expensive, and because the results wouldn't necessarily generalize to other machines). So it sounds like a constraint of the field, not bad choices.

[yau8edq12i]

I love these threads. Everyone will chime in about how they know better how to run the company, with suggestions on the processes that they don't know and so on. Meanwhile the story is "business is #1 and booming". Elegant software stacks aren't always the most important part of the business.

[skrebbel]

Note that I wrote that in 2018 based on hearsay from well before that (I live in the area and have friends who worked at ASML at the time). Things might’ve changed in the ~10 years since then (for better or worse!).

EDIT: there’s a commenter named hcfman here in the thread who works at ASML and says that my comment is garbage (which I take to mean that it’s way outdated). Consider updating your impression accordingly, I see no reason to doubt what they’re saying. Last I checked ASML really did want to improve the software situation, looks like they did.

[svilen_dobrev]

i advised one of their software-making vendors on software-organisation+culture and similars, about 10y ago. It went pretty well, but the funny thing was, The tools and environment they had to use (because of ASML) to check/test stuff, was same as it was in Motorola 25 years ago (Sun CDE /Common Desktop Env? something like that). I felt like dropped in a time machine :/

[1123581321]

From that comment I concluded that software patching speed isn’t a bottleneck there. It sounds frustrating but to be terrible it needs to significantly impede the product or business relationships, which isn’t at all happening.

[midasz]

There's not going to much meaningful pushback on this comment because any (ex-)ASML employee is going to be super hesitant to share anything. So feel free to think what you want.

[seper8]

They don't just test software on the machines. Inaccurate comment at least in 2024.

[hcfman]

Except that link is to a story with a lot of garbage in it.

[newprint]

Lol, thank you for link. I was expecting the opposite from this company, but for some reason, after reading this, I'm not surprised at all.

[themerone]

I expect that if their costumers had to choose between ASML keeping machines around for software testing or shipping every machine the can build, they would want the hardware.

[olejorgenb]

Linked comment is from 2018.

Not really that old on this context though.

[karmasimida]

I don't think so. Any update that is as complex, expensive and critical, to equipments such as ASML's, should be carefully examined to the teeth.

[httpz]

Zeiss -> ASML -> TSMC -> Nvidia

Seems crazy that there are no alternatives for these four companies in the high end AI semiconductor supply chain.

[roenxi]

That perspective is a little wrong; those are the 4 companies on the edge of a wave of technological improvement. It isn't unusual for there to be unique companies in those circumstances. For example when Apple hit the market with the iPhone back in '07 there were similar things going on. One of the things that hamstrung Apple's competitors was that nobody in the supply could manufacture equivalent parts.

Those 4 companies aren't without competitors. But if you pick the best in each category there is (funnily enough) only one option and right now chaining them together gets a noticeably better product than anyone else can build. That isn't normal but it also isn't that weird for new products.

If you want what Nvidia was building a few years ago there are several of options.

[tester756]

Wasnt it recently announced that Nvidia will use Intel's foundry? At least for Advanced Packaging

[cutemonster]

The bus factor for FAB tool factories, is it: 1 / 4 = 0.25?

> virtually no fabs today can run without equipment from Applied Materials, ASML, KLA, and Tokyo Electron

[consumer451]

ctrl-f China = 0 results, so here is some context:

> ASML’s China Sales Surged Despite Secret Dutch Deal With US

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-01-25/asml-s-ch...

Edit: note to self, don’t beer and then HN.

[bee_rider]

Err,

> Secondly, ASML could sell sophisticated tools to Chinese customers for most of calendar 2023 as sanctions against the Chinese semiconductor sector kicked in only in September and only for one tool. By contrast, sales of tools to Chinese clients by Applied Materials were, to a degree, impacted by the U.S. export rules introduced in October 2023.

Maybe control-f is not the best strategy here.

[lvh]

You should try C-f "Chinese".

[newprint]

I don't want to brag, but buying ASML stocks was probably the smartest financial decision in my life. Also, AMSL & AMAT aren't competing in some areas. AMAT provides tooling & services that assist ASML.

[grenoire]

Same, I sold at the peak. Don't hold on to your winners for too long, the stock price is not entirely a function of the company's financial success. A lot of it is just on whims and cycles.

[gabagaul]

Time to spread some liberty and freedom in the Netherlands.

[FooBarWidget]

The US is not far from doing that. See the Hague Invasion Act.

Also I've been wondering why our Prime Minister has been so enthusiastically following US foreign policy lately. Turns out he's eyeing the NATO boss seat, and the US has the most important vote.

[konschubert]

I think Europe would do well not to repeat the Russian mistake with China.

[renewiltord]

Is there any need? We licensed them specifically the tech because it would have been unreasonable to have given it to the established players and because they bought SVGI.