[subtypefiddler]

It boils down to

- Labor relations (unions in Arizona pushed back agains Taiwanese workers build the factory)

- Local partners (Denso/Sony and Toyota investing in Japanese project, TSMC on its own in the US)

- Subsidies (Japan delivered on promises, US didn't)

- Ambition (12nm-28nm in Japan, 4nm in US)

It seems the US gov is not very serious about it while Japanese gov surely is. It sounds self-inflicted.

(edit: formatting)

[TaylorAlexander]

I’m sure the point about labor unions is true in this case, but I did a quick search and it seems labor union participation is even higher in Japan. 17% in the Japan and 10% in the USA.

I think in many ways we do labor unions wrong in the US, and from my cursory knowledge it seems like the Taft-Hartley act has a lot to do with it. That concentrated union power in the leadership which created an opportunity for more corruption, and also weakened certain powers that would make labor struggles more useful. Of course in Japan, they would likely use Japanese workers due to strong nationalist sentiment so this particular issue wouldn’t occur.

I’m only saying this because some will read your comment and take away “labor unions bad”. I suspect that the truth is we aren’t doing labor unions properly here, and also the desire to use Taiwanese workers suggests there is something lacking about the US education system. It is of course reasonable for US workers to want a chance, but we need to make sure they are worthy of that chance. You can leave it up to the market to let people find higher education, but that’s going to leave smaller numbers in the end due to how wealth is distributed in this country. If you want higher numbers of educated workers, more provisions for affordable education are required.

[seanmcdirmid]

Labor unions in different countries are completely different. For example, China has almost 100% union participation but it isn’t very meaningful. In some countries, unions are merely fronts for organized crime, in Japan and Northern Europe they are more like active partners.

[lxm]

To clarify, this wasn't even a spat over unionized labor at the factory, this was about who gets to build the factory.

TSMC wanted to bring some highly specialized labor from Taiwan (who presumably have experience with building this type of facilities) and Arizona Building and Construction Trades Council insisting their local dudes would do the job just fine.

[silent_cal]

You make a good point, but in the US I do think labor unions have become basically bad. They function more like organized crime than legal representation.

[coredog64]

One of the major problems with US unions is a hangover from racism. Can’t remember the USSC decision off the top of my head, but the TL;DR is that there was a railroad union that wasn’t defending African-American members. The USSC essentially said that unions have to defend everyone. The downside to this is that it created an adversarial relationship between unions and management. If Joe Bag O’Donuts is a chucklehead, the US union still has to defend him. This leads to rubber rooms and job banks. In a German union, everyone can agree that Joe needs to go and that’s it.

[schainks]

The US government currently is inhabited by one political party whose goal is to hinder US interests in any way possible while complaining that the US doesn’t do enough to bolster said interests.

So yes, part of the government is serious, while another part is serious about doing the opposite, which does produce the intended effect: public perception that the US government is not serious about these things.

What it will take for all political interests to align for the sake of US interests? Probably turning off financial lobbying from shadow money groups.

[huytersd]

Political influence isn’t going to align if two sides of the country are irrevocably misaligned on some fundamentals (racism, LGBT etc.). There’s no middle ground (mainly LGBT) on these issues so it’s going to have to come down to a pseudo civil war with one side prevailing.

[mikewarot]

The US government is currently inhabited by one political Duopoly, the RepubliCrats, who cater to the interests of the 0.001%, who keep us divided. It's been that way since at least 1970, if this set of interviews from 1970 is to be believed[1]

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeeA-IU45pc

[shiroiushi]

>So yes, part of the government is serious, while another part is serious about doing the opposite, which does produce the intended effect: public perception that the US government is not serious about these things.

I disagree with your conclusion. My conclusion is that, yes, the US government really is not serious about these things. It's not just a "public perception", it's reality. It's reality because half the people in that government act this way and make it reality, and because those half the people in government are voted into their positions by half the voters in the population.

>What it will take for all political interests to align for the sake of US interests? Probably turning off financial lobbying from shadow money groups.

Financial lobbying isn't the reason that half the people are voting for a party that works against US's best interests. Those voters really do believe in the people they're voting for, and think that they really can make America like the 1950s again somehow.

[Pigalowda]

Says you! I think it’s important for my political party to only a function when it has majority control over the executive, legislative, and judicial branches as well as majority control over provincial governance.

Once we have that we can show our voters how disappointment really feels. It needs to feel so soul crushing we completely implode our party and die out in irrelevance. That’s my thoughts on it anyways.

[xp84]

> one political party whose goal is to hinder US interests in any way possible while complaining that the US doesn’t do enough to bolster said interests.

I’m really amused because I genuinely can’t tell which of our useless “parties” you’re referring to!

[UberFly]

I'm honestly not sure which one you're referring to.

[TaylorAlexander]

Edit: I misread the comment

[bparsons]

Japan is just better at building stuff. They have very advanced industrial policy which ensures that they have the capacity to manufacture goods and build stuff better than anyone else in the world. Even if the US had a functioning political system, it would still take decades to catch up.

The IRA is a good first step, but it doesn't begin to address the underlying problems in the US economy. If you let the free market decide everything, it will always be more profitable to invest your money in a SAAS company or a suburban strip mall.

The two countries are optimizing for very different things, and are dealing with a very different set of conditions.

[somethoughts]

What states in the US should do is create a special economic zone where foreign companies can have have more freedoms with respect to labor relations initially.

Then slowly convert those special economic zone into a normal commercial zone once critical mass has relocated to that location.

I think the technical prowess w.r.t. semiconductor development and fab building probably exists in the US but its spread across the country in random locations.

I think the issue in Arizona is you have a bunch of non-semiconductor construction companies attempting to bid on very specialized construction projects. As such they include a bunch of overhead in putting together the teams and ramping up on the technology.

[petermcneeley]

I propose a name for your "special economic zone" could be "Galt's Gulch".

[CPLX]

No. They shouldn’t.

I can’t think of a worse American policy idea than giving preferential treatment letting companies exploit American workers more aggressively, but only if the owners of the company who will profit from this are not American.

[mhh__]

12nm Vs 4nm seems like a big deal

[healthdare]

Free market, it's valued more somewhere else. Seller sells it there. Simple as.

[panick21_]

The US is serious, they are just incompetent.

[testhest]

US labor unions are communists where they are social democrats in Northern Europe and Japan. Extreme antagonists vs coorporating partners.