Ask HN: Feeling quite disheartened about job search, any advice?

[dispirited]

Yeah, so I'm really feeling the negative side of the remote job market right now...can't help but feel pretty beat down. My savings are running out, and though I've tried lowering my expectations (like down to what I was earning when I first started as an engineer), I'm still getting no bites. TopTal is a race to, and scuffle at, the bottom, and I've probably spent more than a month on take-home assignments only to get demoralizing replies like "We liked your solution, but actually we decided not to offer this role". I have 8 YoE (mostly web apps) and am kind of facing a crisis of if I need to uproot my life and move. I don't have high living expenses, so I'm not at all expecting a big tech salary, but even still with low expectations I'm not getting many replies. My personal network hasn't been able to help either. I'm in the EU FWIW.

Any words of encouragement or advice or comfort? Feeling a bit down today.

[itake]

When I am in situations like this, I try to focus on the process, not the outcome.

Find joy in applying for new jobs, learning about system design and algorithms, or doing practice interviews.

If you follow the process, you will find that job.

----

On a side note, I would encourage you to not lower your pay or communicate you will accept lower pay, because its a signal to employers that you're desperate, no one wants you, and they too should be cautious to hire you. As one of my old favorite managers once told me, "when I gave you that offer, I wanted you to walk in on your first day smiling"

[ben_w]

> On a side note, I would encourage you to not lower your pay or communicate you will accept lower pay, because its a signal to employers that you're desperate, no one wants you, and they too should be cautious to hire you. As one of my old favorite managers once told me, "when I gave you that offer, I wanted you to walk in on your first day smiling"

While this is often true: (1) some employers really do want the cheapest labour — they're not people you want to work for for other reasons, but they will hire you, and if you're short of money, some is better than one

(2) It's unclear what the market rates are. I'm also job hunting*, and I've seen people confidently claim the "going rate" for my experience level is anywhere from €75k to €114k. My experience with pay has always been getting huge rises followed by people shocked by how small the number is.

* If anyone's interested in hiring me: iOS senior, Berlin, been doing iOS since the first iPod with retina display came out

[dispirited]

Thank you for your words, I'm definitely trying to reframe this way and rekindle some interest in algorithms/design.

And yeah, I haven't obviously made that signal, but I have definitely applied for "lesser" companies that I wouldn't have otherwise.

[al_borland]

>As one of my old favorite managers once told me, "when I gave you that offer, I wanted you to walk in on your first day smiling"

Is there more context to this? Did the manager want you to walk in smiling even though a low ball offer was accepted, or want you to walk in smiling because you felt you got a good offer you are happy with?

[koliber]

The market did get tougher. It's not you. That means that you have to put considerably more effort, or a different kind of effort, to land a job.

Think about landing the job as a numbers game. There are a bunch of steps, connected into a pipeline. Roughly, it's 1. find offers 2. apply 3. prescreen 4. interviews 5. offer

At each step of the pipeline, you will have fewer and fewer offers that will remain. Your goal is to bring one through the whole pipeline.

Think about the pass rate. Say you got 3 offers, but two were bad, and you accepted one. That's 33% pass rate.

You got invited for interviews at 20 firms, and three ended in offers. That's a 15% pass rate.

You were sent 30 pre-screening questionnaires, and got 20 interview invites. 66% pass rate.

You applied to 100 jobs, and got 30 pre-screening questionnaires. 30% pass rate.

These numbers are made up. You can work on any step of the pipeline and try to do things differently to see if it improves your pass rate.

In your case, are you not getting enough interviews? Or are you getting tons of interviews but are not getting any offers (or are not getting invited to a 2nd interview).

If it's the first, maybe you need to devote attention to your resume, cover letter, LinkedIn profile.

If it's the latter, maybe better interview prep or coaching will help.

It's a numbers game. You have to keep trying, but also tweak the steps along the way.

If you have any concrete questions or would like some help, my contact info is in my profile.

[dejaydev]

I agree entirely, it's important to remember you're not alone in the struggle and it is 100% not personal. I started logging the jobs I've applied for and how they're going with a slightly modified version of the Notion template[0] to track what titles and companies I get best the responses from to help track the numbers.

[0] https://www.notion.so/templates/job-applications

[achempion]

This approach is logical and straightforward. The main flaw is that it treats all job opportunities equally. Life is not numbers, and the job you have or find will demand a significant portion of your life.

This means that you can spend more effort on getting the job that fits you the best and none or less effort for other opportunities.

[hobs]

Agreed - my single biggest win for recruiters to show up in my inbox is to google search linkedin for the top result for the job role I am targeting, and then change my profile (in an honest way) to ape that as much as possible, pass rate is about top and bottom of funnel.

[pluc]

This is what I do. Since your resume is your point of entry, if you're not hooking anything then it's easy to say the issue is that you didn't manage to grab the attention/interest of whoever filtered those resumes. I change my resume every week now, unless I got good results from a previous version. No luck so far.

[pluc]

I have 25 YoE and talking to walls too. My only suggestion is to ask everyone to review your resume. If that doesn't work, start lying. The last time I was looking for work, I applied to over 600 positions. I've been off work 2 weeks and I'm nearing 200.

Came across this the other day, good resources hidden in links: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IUUwdEw0RjTftvJv3LTA-7XI... (such as this: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1a_l8V-R7i5UOJiCV_QUqK167...)

[lokhura]

When you don't have connections, lying is the best advice to get the good jobs. I just lie about anything I know I can learn on the job. No experience with Vue but know React? No problem, I'm a Vue expert. No experience with with C# but know Java? No problem, I know C# by heart.

Once I get pass HR and get to talk to an actual engineer I can reevaluate my lies and drive the interview into the areas I'm actually experienced with.

Also, interviewing is a game. Even if I'm not looking for a new job I just do it to practice and for fun. It feels pretty good to reject an offer and know your worth.

[programjames]

Don't lie, that just degrades signalling for everyone else.

[vertis]

I'm curious what subset of tech you're applying for, and what your region and salary expectation are. Speaking as someone with 20+ YOE experience myself.

[DamnInteresting]

The tech job market is indeed brutal right now. Until recently I was in the same boat as you, applying for lots of jobs and hearing nothing back. For context, I am an early graybeard, I've been coding since the late 1990s. Until ~2020 I never had trouble finding a job--then it suddenly went from falling off a log to nigh impossible.

Rather than repeat some of the advice already given, I suggest you cultivate at least one uncommon niche skill. Doing so adds keywords to your resume that don't appear on all of the others, and demonstrates the ability and willingness to learn new things. It's also possible that there is some employer out there who really needs work in that niche, and they're struggling to find matching applicants.

One potential niche is legacy code. I landed my current position because I know Perl, and this employer has a lot of legacy code. I also found some traction with ColdFusion. If you can't stomach learning old-timey stuff like that, maybe learn how to build browser extensions, or Wordpress plugins. Those aren't super rare skills, but they're not as common these days as React or Angular. You don't have to master anything, just offer a running start.

Also: Don't be afraid to be slightly silly on your resume. The people who have to review those things see a lot of very boring stuff, and something with a little personality can stand out.

Good luck.

[collyw]

Where do you find Perl jobs? Is there a market rewriting them to something more modern like Python?

[t43562]

I don't know where you are in the EU but some places have a lot of jobs and its hard to hire people. I would consider doing this because you never know how it will turn out - you might end up getting a job overseas but spending months at home working remotely every year once they get to trust you.

Other people have said its a numbers game and they're right. You have to apply and again and somehow keep your spirits up. I hate it when I'm finding a job - I always feel like shit and that I'm worthless. Then I get something and I feel worthwhile again - it's all in one's own head and there's a skill I need to get better at about managing those feelings.

I think the key is to be slightly arrogant in your own eyes. Believe in yourself for no reason at all. "I know python but I'm not a great expert" BZZT....WRONG ANSWER "I know java" BING!!! RIGHT ANSWER. There's an element of projecting a confident and go-getter attitude. You can learn whatever you don't know, you can fix what you lack it's not a problem.

Another issue is that people are looking for different things and you can reword your CV to hook them. I've lost offers because I didn't sell myself on the right aspects of my experience before. You can learn something topical and put that on your CV if you find out that it's a hot item in your general field. e.g. if you do webapps then do you know react or is there something else that's a ticklist item with recruiters and companies?

I think it's also easier to get jobs with smaller companies - they've less budget and less staff and are probably more desperate. If you're not fullstack then do some basic fullstack example site and teach yourself enough to be just about useful.

[as1mov]

It's not just you, I'm in a similar boat (also in EU). The market has been quite bad in the last few months. Used to get at least a few calls from the HN hiring posts, but got absolutely nothing in the last 3-4 months. Same for LinkedIn, used to get at least 2+ interview calls every week. Now almost nothing :/ I'm not even picky when it comes to the requirements, don't mind working from office or learning something new (or obscure) for the job.

Every job post on LinkedIn seems to have hundreds of applicants, reminds me of the time I used to apply for jobs in India.

[altdataseller]

I run a daily email/newsletter that emails you the latest remote dev jobs (nothing outdated, and anything from backend to ML). It’s all free so if you or anyone here is interested, you can sign up here: https://bloomberry.com/remote-jobs/

I built this to scratch my own itch when I was looking for a new job, and everyone I knew wanted something like this, so I’ve just kept it getting for people who are looking for remote engineering jobs :)

[ayewo]

Can you offer a weekly option?

[Charlie_32]

Have you tried any indirect hunting tactics? Going to a tech meet-up and seeing who's hiring? Talking to people in the sector can also put your mind at ease when you relate to people with similar problems.

Might also be worth looking at University job boards if there's any Uni's in your town. I worked an academia job part time because it was all I could find, but I learned a lot and the work felt great compared to most office jobs. Might be a good stop gap for you, as they tend to be fixed term contracts I think.

[shp0ngle]

The job market is ass right now.

My stupid advice is... give up something.

Give up remote, give up working on same tech stack, give up high salary. I got through the slog of interviews and got something that's not ideal but hey it's a job.

But damn was it all so torturous.

[em-bee]

Give up remote

not an option when you have family, and there are no local jobs.

give up working on same tech stack

well, yes, but who is hiring someone who doesn't already have experience on their tech stack?

[jowdones]

How about physical office jobs in your area? Have you applied to those? Remote is tough these days but willing to butt in the seat for 8 hours with a 2 hours commute might put food on your plate and buy you time.

[bengale]

This would be my recommendation too. The global talent market for remote developers is extremely competitive. The days of failed offshoring seems to have passed, it's now much easier to build excellent remote teams but it is driving down salaries.

[starbugs]

I'm afraid that's my current takeaway of the situation as well. Not sure if that is really the case though. It would be nice to hear about different experiences.

Apparently, after remote was "the new normal" and "worked extremely well", now nobody wants it anymore for ... reasons?

[throwitall]

throwaway.

we stopped hiring remote workers after experiencing massive amounts of employment fraud (multiple jobs, lying about who they were) and extremely low quality candidates despite good offers

[lokhura]

Two reasons why this probably happened. 1) you paid too little, and 2) you probably had people in-office too so the remote employees were second class workers. The solution is simple: pay above market rates and create a truly remote culture.

[vemv]

I've vouched (voted to remove from flagged) this comment.

With that said, what was the typical salary for one of those positions?

[jokethrowaway]

We do get a lot of fake applications but they're fairly easy to filter.

Employment fraud can't be avoided, monitoring performance is hard and the economy is harsh enough people feel justified pulling multiple jobs.

[jacob_rezi]

If anyone needs help with their resume - I built rezi and will be happy to give lifetime upgraded accounts at no cost

[dejaydev]

Rezi looks awesome and I love pages with personality ("Total Users (this is annoying to update)"). Giving this a try now.

Update: I've been moving my resume over and I love how well made the website is, even little things like selecting a state and having the cities localized. This is really cool!

[neumann]

Hi, I would love to try. Same position as the OP, but other side of the world.

[bpg_92]

I checked the page and it seemed really cool, would like to give it a try!

[ayewo]

That’s very gracious of you. Thanks.

How do HNers take advantage of your offer?

[MilStdJunkie]

Buy the pro plan first, then it gets upgraded to lifetime?

[ivanvas]

Looks great! I’d love to try.

[generalbuto]

i'd love to have one!

[phyalow]

Crypto firms are hiring like crazy right now for software engineering positions. Whatever you think about the space, its a solid paycheck until something else comes along.

[john-tells-all]

Note that a lot of scammers pretend to offer crypto jobs. Two of my Slack/Discord channels had to kick a bunch of scammers off.

[WinstonSmith84]

I suppose it's relative, there were a lot of layoffs in 2023 and I'm not sure they would be looking for so many web developers?

[gpmcadam]

Don't feel bad about taking time to give yourself more energy in the long run. Go for a walk or jog. Do something you enjoy to help recharge your batteries.

If you plan to continue spending time on personal projects or CV, maybe change your scenery and go to a nice cafe or similar. Maybe coworking spaces or new environments will unlock opportunities to network in ways you haven't thought of.

Keep your mind focused on the end goal and consider each step a learning opportunity.

Also, take this time to do things you might not have had the time to do before: learn a new programming language or tech stack or write that blog post you've been sitting on; you never know what doors this type of thing could open for you.

Best of luck!

[dispirited]

Thank you for your kind words <3

[devoutsalsa]

Hey, I'm in the Netherlands. We don't hire remotely, so you'd need to move here if you're not here already. I don't know if I can help, but my company is doing well. Feel free to email me for more info.

[kypro]

It's hard man. I don't know if anyone here can realistically give you useful advice or much comfort because if you've been employable for years and are only now struggling it suggests it's not you, but that the job market has changed.

The job market for developers is really bad right now, and honestly it's hard for me to see it improving much any time soon. The industry is so saturated with talent these days that I can't imagine there ever being the same kind of demand that we've seen in the past.

Really all you can do is keep applying and try your best to understand where your limitations are. I think web development is particularly bad right now because the web development ecosystem is very accessible so there's a lot of talent concentrating there. When I got into web development you had to first learn how to configure a webserver and set up DNS, etc. Today you can just spin up a website with a single command. You can create a basic React website in an afternoon.

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't think you should try to compete in web development skills. Instead you should try to compete by highlighting other skills that complement your experience. For example, do you have experience with accessibility? Do you have experience with any devops tools? Do you have experience leading teams? These things can set you apart from all of the other profiles which say "webdeveloper with 10 years experience".

[vemv]

I second the sentiment, however I'm not sure that the market is 'saturated' with talent. The need for productive devs remains there, companies just lack the investment money (and/or cannot spend it due to the US tax situation). Products, teams are struggling as a consequence.

The moment investment comes back, so will be jobs. In the end it's that easy.

[colund]

Don't give up! The job market is tough, but I'm sure there are jobs out there that would be a good fit for you. For example, check LinkedIn for job postings. It's just much harder to land a job these days, but I think it's temporary until companies realize they need to hire again.

Some tips: Reach out to recruiters who have contacted you in the past. Sign up for online CV databases. Use your network and contact former colleagues to see if their companies are hiring. Work on a side project that excites you and makes you proud to change your mindset, or take an online course. Try to get excited about the challenge instead of thinking about giving up. I just watched a YCombinator video which, among other things, talks about not giving up too soon: https://youtu.be/al-15mMAS18.

Also, try to get feedback when you're rejected. Are you showing genuine interest in the job? Do you ask insightful questions, and do you submit take-home assignments without bugs?

[fasteddie31003]

I feel your pain. I've been working on https://customizedresumes.com which might help you. It takes your existing resume and uses AI to tailor it perfectly for each job description you are applying to, giving you a better chance at getting an interview. I'd love to hear your feedback.

[john-tells-all]

sounds really useful! I'll check this out tomorrow and leave feedback.

I have two niches: DevOps (build resources with code, facilitate the Feature Devs) and DevEx/Velocity Coach (drop in and do focused training). A tool to focus my pitch to the opportunity would be great!

[sebestindragos]

The job market is terrible right now, a lot of people competings for few job openings. My wife has also been looking for a junior FE role for almost a year and still no luck. You just have to push through, keep applying to as many jobs as you can find, it’s a numbers game in the end. I’m actually building a tool that can scrape job listings from ~15 sites. If it finds anything new then it sends a notification so that you can apply as soon as possible. If anyone wants to give it a try https://first2apply.com/

[loginx]

If you haven't already, set up a profile on upwork. The barrier to entry is a lot lower on short term projects, so you are more likely to find some work to keep your finances from depleting too quickly.

It will also give you a boost of confidence, an opportunity to build social proof about your work, and it may even end up scoring you a longer term engagement.

Good luck!

[collyw]

I tried that the other day. Says my email address exists when I try to sign up. Then it says it doesn't when I try to log in / reset password.

[mherrmann]

Lower your expectations with regards to finding a remote position. I know you came here for comfort, but it seems to me that you are better served by hard truths. Working remotely, you are competing with the whole world. People in lower-income countries will be cheaper and not necessarily worse than you. Use your location as an advantage.

[blaisehorvath]

I feel you. I've been there a couple of months ago. Luckily it turned around and I got two offers in one week after months of nothing. I have 10 years of fullstack experience and some tech lead experience. The job market feels hard now. Few years ago it took me a few weeks to fill my calendar with interviews...

[Muromec]

I was jobhunting for most of 2023 and only had an offer in October. The struggle is real, just keep doing it.

[gwbas1c]

I live in the US:

In 2020-2021 I spent 20 weeks looking, and applied for 57 jobs.

> I've probably spent more than a month on take-home assignments

I (usually) won't do a take home that I suspect will take me more than 3 hours. Basically, if I have to "learn" to use some kind of framework / pattern in order to do the takehome, I punt. (Unless I want to learn to use the framework / pattern.)

The imbalance of time with long take homes assignments is perverse, because the people evaluating your take home only invest a few minutes into evaluating it: Long take homes are only worth doing once you've had a lot of contact with the company, and there's some kind of payment in return for work. (IE, Duck Duck Go does a good interview and then pays a reasonable rate for the take home.)

[isoprophlex]

With 8 years of experience, you might know quite some people in a position to hire. Call every single one of them, and if they're probably not hiring, ask them for 1-2 phone numbers of people they know who might be looking to expand their teams.

[jononor]

This is a good strategy that is an excellent complement to applying cold.

[begueradj]

Do not sound "desperate" like this in your job interviews (no offense) because an employer will not hire you to solve your problems, but to solve his problems. And do not have a "begging attitude" because you offer your services (skills). Your eventual employer is your client (client of your competence).

> but even still with low expectations I'm not getting many replies.

Do not sell your skills cheap. If you have low expectations, seek for less qualified jobs while applying for what you feel you are meant for.

Many people went through more or less tough a situation. So do not panic. It is ok to go from failure to failure until the final success.

[john-tells-all]

The term for the market is "hellscape" :|

I have 20+ YOE, aced a take-home technical, had good rapport with team lead... but they didn't move forward with hiring me.

Take care of yourself! Go outside! Get a hobby! Mental health is so important. Tomorrow morning I'm meeting my buddy to drink too much coffee and swap stories before coming home to work on my business card for next week's multi-day job conference. It's... a lot.

[TradingPlaces]

The National Labs are most definitely hiring for all STEM roles.

https://nationallabs.org/work-here/careers/

I just looked at Berkeley and they have 60 openings with the word “software” in the title. https://jobs.lbl.gov/jobs/search/4993486

[EchoChamberMan]

> I'm in the EU FWIW.

[whiplash451]

If I may ask: are you in a remote location?

Some employers claim to be remote-first but favor employees who are close to one of their physical offices.

[captaincaveman]

Where in Europe are you, are you applying to job in your country? Are you applying to jobs where you are a native speaker?

[weweersdfsd]

If you haven't already, perhaps try applying for non-engineering positions with adequate pay and of such nature that your SWE experience is useful. I think soft skills / industry specific knowledge will become only more valuable on the long run, as AI will eventually reduce work required for writing basic CRUD apps.

[mattlondon]

Get your CV/resume reviewed by friends/former colleagues or hell even here on HN. I have seen some ... let's say "wacky" CVs.

It feels like though the market is somewhat in the doldrums now - I have no direct experience of current conditions but at my BigCo (deliberately not naming) hiring is basically stopped, even for backfill/attrition. Seems like companies are kinda spooked at the moment and not really hiring, and letting headcount naturally shrink.

Have you considered contract work? If companies are not hiring FTEs, they may still be looking for temporary contract work as that is lower risk for them.

Good luck.

[Charlie_32]

And I'll add that sometimes contracts lead to permanent jobs.

[jokethrowaway]

Market is though and it will stay that way until we go back to ZIRP.

We stopped using recruiters and just do personal referrals.

Churn is low because nobody can find another job, albeit a few people still manage.

Feel free to reach out at f99k at proton me

[yodsanklai]

> negative side of the remote job market right now

Have you considered non-remote jobs and relocating? maybe that'll be good enough and give you time to find to build up your resume and find a remote position.

[dispirited]

Yeah, I'm slowly starting to accept that as an option. Of course, it's more than just relocating, it's giving up all the friends and community I have where I am right now. Feels existential to me.

[sage76]

I'm not in Europe, but at least in India, I hear a lot of news of layoffs.

I left the field but my friends tell me the market is brutal.

So maybe it's not you.

[EchoChamberMan]

Similar boat. I'm looking in other industries.

[uptownfunk]

Market is totally brutal right now.

[kungfupawnda]

Move to USA/Canada.

[yodsanklai]

I don't know about Canada, but moving to the US for an EU citizen is very hard. H1B is a lottery and needs sponsorship. Transfer visas are easier to get if you work for a US company, but you can be sent home at any time if you lose your job.

[yungporko]

you do realise that you can't just hop on a plane and choose to live in another country?

[syngrog66]

why is this on front page of HN? we all know what this is

[dispirited]

Tell me, what is this?

[EchoChamberMan]

You're sick in the head. Absolutely abhorrent.

[flkenosad]

Why do you want to work in tech so bad? Just get a different type of job and code on the side.

[vertis]

Why do you want to be a <insert job you're passionate about>, just do it as a hobby spend ~8 hours a day doing something you hate.

[ben_w]

Für mich, Softwareentwicklung ist die eine Arbeitsstelle, wo meine c. B1 Deutsch ist (normalerweise) kein Problem.

The original poster was "in the EU", just like I am. It's entirely plausible that for them, like for me, language is a barrier to other jobs besides tech.

[castalian]

> have 8 YoE (mostly web apps)

This sounds like a red flag for me.

[mrweasel]

Depends, but I'd agree. If you can do only JavaScript/TypeScript and frameworks related to those languages then I can understand having issues finding work.

Quite frankly, if you want to work as a developer right now then go add Java or C# to the list of language you know. A quick check on the local job listing site shows all Java and C#, and a single Rails developer, job posted. The Java and C# are frequently not for a single position, but multiple.

In my experience the companies that are currently hiring either expect you to be able to do some web app (front-end) work, or they have a smaller team of front-end developers supporting a large team of back-end developers.

One major issue I've seem with developers who focus to hard on web apps is that their understanding of infrastructure, deployment and configuration management leaves a lot to be desired. Not saying that that is the case universally, but it is less rare to encounter a Java developer who can't navigate database and web-servers.

[avandermeulen]

What’s wrong with working on web apps?

[Charlie_32]

Silly troll.