"""
led managers to prioritise digital natives for open roles, believing they are more adaptable than Gen Xers
"""
I'm an old millenial and there's truth to the joke that we have to help our parents AND our kids fix their printers. I have found the complete lack of fundamental computer skills in younger candidates ("what is a directory? Why would I ever need the terminal?") to be a challenge.
Kids in our time used to sit in front of computers, nowadays they are glued to their phones and phones have neither printers nor directories... (don't 'well, actually' please)
I think there was a sweet spot when your home computer didn’t have internet. You’d “use” the computer and there would be very little to do other than snoop around, fiddle with settings and try to make it do something interesting. When my computer is internetless today it’s useless. It was the same then but somehow I spent hours fiddling with it. It was the same for even less curious people. If you got a CD with some software and it wasn’t working right you had to just fiddle with it until it did. You couldn’t google the answer. You learn a lot through trial and error.
Generally these stereotypes about various generations are highly questionable (as any stereotypes, of course). My nickname includes my birth year, so I'm even older than you, but I still grew up with computers and know more about them than many of the kids whose parents put an iPhone/iPad in their hands as soon as they could hold it...
There is a disturbing number of young software engineers who have never installed or used Linux, and who don’t want to learn Python or Powershell for their job.
They stick to what they know (usually C# or Typescript) and they have problems if they need to use a new tool or language.
I’m biased (Gen X) but I think Gen X has had the most interesting computer technology progression of everyone living today. We started with 8-bit computers like the C64, Apple II, Atari, moved on to 16-bit and DOS, moved on to the 32-bit triad of Windows, Mac, and Linux, on to 64-bit architectures, went from 2400 BBSs to 9600 and beyond, transitioned from dialup Internet with PPP to backbone-connected networking in college, just catching ISDN, DSL, and cable modems as young adults, now enjoying cloud services and hosted VMs, were steeped in assembly language, then BASIC, then pascal, C, C++, got to work with higher and higher level languages and frameworks, and are now witnessing a transformation to AI prompt driven development.
What is Gen Z’s “technology progression” look like? iPhone6->iPhone X->iPhone 13->iPhone 15->and on and on… yawn. Development-wise it’s varying versions of Xcode and/or js frameworks, I guess, and now on to AI prompts. I feel like they missed out on so much!
Huh. I have to say as a Gen Xer that it's hard to find articles that celebrate cool stuff we do or did, or even ones that condemn us for the mistakes of our generation. Instead we get these "Let's pity the poor confused Gen Xers" bits. Meanwhile you can't throw a stone without hitting a meme that mocks millennials.
Back in the day I thought GenX was all about rebellion, absurdism, and a laugh-behind-your-hand-while-you-take-the-check anti-corporate stance. That's still working for me and I'm having the time of my life learning or dying because that _is_ life.
Anyway get off my lawn, I have to go ask an AI how to manage people.
In my little internet sphere, the only time I see genx mentioned is by genx themselves, and it's to complain about how easy everyone else has it, how weak everyone else is, and most of all, how badass genx was/is. It seems you're becoming the new boomers.
These articles almost always include evidence to suggest that ageism is categorically "bad business", and every time I'm left wondering why older workers aren't taking advantage of this apparent industry blindspot to build their own powerhouse companies?
Being in a series of small startups for most of my career I haven't done a lot of hiring, but I've always aimed for people with more experience than me, so they tend to be older. And man, good software developers with 20+ years of experience are _so_ good that it's hard to imagine anyone passing them up.
From what I have seen, many workplaces these days, seem to be attempts to recreate the college experience (I went to a very rigid tech school, that did its best to recreate a work environment, so it wasn't a big deal, for me to enter the workforce). Not sure that's the best thing to do, but a lot of folks are making a lot of money, so I guess I'm just out of touch.
In Ye Olde Days, most companies were run by folks in their fifties. These people (the good ones, anyway) knew that they had to have the energy, enthusiasm, and creativity of youth, but were also quite aware of the need for structure, stability and confidence that only comes with experience.
Since older folks had the money and power, younger ones were forced to work with them. Now that youth has the money and power, it seems as if they don't feel the need to have older folks around.
You've sneaked in a premise that they are not starting their own companies. As a counter-example, there are many 40+ year old people were laid off in the video games industry in recent years, who have since founded their own companies. They attract good talent, offer good working conditions (often remote), and attract funding much faster than the usual new company in this space. So in that sense, they are quite robust and formidable. Another way to say this is that they are in auspicious circumstances to build powerhouses in a blind spot.
As a GenXer, the issue is that there really isn't very many good GenXers - software was so new there just aren't many 20+ years of experience software developers, and then there were so many bad ideas floating around for so long, the subset of those developers that are actually good beyond the abilities of people with 10-15 years of experience is small.
I mean, when I started, there was maybe 100k "computer programmers" in the US. Now there are millions.
I have the same policy. I list maximum of ten recent years on my resume and leave the other 20 off. When a past role “ages out” I just delete it. In this environment it’s at best a neutral signal, at worst it counts against you. I took all dates and years off mine too, so you can’t guess how old I am by knowing my university graduation year.
53 year old here, almost 40 years experience developing professional software (yes, I was one of those kids) .. all I can tell you the one bit of advice that has ALWAYS helped me through this situation, and I've faced it multiple times:
Do not stop learning. Ever.
Seriously. Just because you graduated with a piece of paper doesn't mean you can stop studying. This is a fatal mistake.
Study the things that will make it easier and more effective for you to exchange with others.
Your diploma isn't worth a THING until you've actually delivered something - a product or service - to the world, which someone, somewhere is willing to pay for.
Until you've actually exchanged something with the world, you are of little use to it.
That is a cold hard fact, which you can either resist or embrace.
That sense of entitlement you might feel? That is what you need to work on. There is no such thing as a free lunch.
How to find the time? Meeting heavy companies as an engineering manager, after a certain age you want to relax after 7p and weekends and not work on a side project
The only ways to learn:
1) quit and study or work on side projects with savings, risking resume gap and forever unemployability as an Old
2) work hard at current role to sneak into useful projects, ignoring management responsibilities and other priorities at current co
3) work at night and weekends on personal projects and research
I don't know. It feels like the digital age will die with the advent of AI. People keep casting doubt. But, that's purely out of a place of ego. When you work with those tools. When you build tools on top of those tools. When you follow the research. When you notice the rate of advancement. Then, it becomes blind faith to think AI is not the twilight of digital work for humans.
Effectively no one is debugging assembly. But, I'm supposed to be convinced "someone will need to be there when things break"? Come on. There are millions in the field worldwide.
What you say is true, from my own experience as well. That said, it feels like a career change is in order simply to be able to continue to provide 10 years from now (There's another 30+ years I need to work before they let me die).
Cost/price is another key aspect that is not prominently present in the article but is a key decision driver. The assumption on the employer side is that younger folks will work for lower salaries AND can be developed to the companies needs whereas someone with 10-20 years of experience is automatically “more expensive” and has to adapt.
Now there is a catch: even IF an experienced candidate would work for a lower salary, e.g. if they don’t have exactly the matching skillset and need time to learn, the employer may see this as an indication/admission of a lack of competency and decide against that candidate.
It’s a tough challenge and often a lot of irrationality seems to be involved.
After decades of picking up new technical skills as needed I have confidence in my ability to learn new things so I don't waste my time learning any technology for which I don't have an immediate need. Most employers, not all, seem to primarily focus their hiring decisions on 'what do you know' versus 'what have you done'. Naturally, that negates the primary advantage that more experienced workers will have.
The prisoners dilemma shows that everyone is incentivized against unions. Unions however, would solve this. You just need a mechanism to stop union cronyism.
How does this square with the other phenomenon we’ve all seen where new (usually younger) hires get larger compensation packages than existing employees relying on raises? If young people are actually cheaper, why do they come in making more money than the veterans already there? Not sure how both can be true.
The interesting thing to me is that there is ageism in the title of the article and no one seems to notice. That makes me think that ageism is a deep seeded and very prevalent problem.
The phrase "had to learn or die" has an implicit assumption that Gen X may have trouble adjusting to new technology.
We Gen-Xers are the original digital natives. I grew up with early 8-bit computers, moving to 16-bit, 32-bit and 64-bit. My original 286/386 PCs got tinkered so much I didn't bother putting the case cover back on.
My desk was a mess of serial cables, MIDI cables, speaker and headphone cables. My "Internet" was dialed through manual Hayes modem commands and later required starting Trumpet Winsock. I spent hours squeezing 10K out of my DOS low memory for games or Win 3.1.
I had to partition my multiple drives, get more HDD space using Stacker and worry about FAT16/FAT32. I had to worry about 16-bit compatibility in Windows and DirectX minor versions.
Now some jerk comes and tells me I can't use some slow and ridiculous browser-based software?
Gimme a break. My teenager can't sneeze without checking how to do it on YouTube.
I had this kind of discussion with people who make good money managing digitalization projects.
Under the term "digitalization" (somewhat confusingly) companies understand "make (often service) X available via the internet". Similarly "digital" means "connected to the internet" (i.e. punchcards are not digital :-) ). This is a different usage of these terms than in engineering, but this usage is rather consistent.
The term "natives" in "digital natives" refers to the fact that this is the first generation for which (rather consistently available) internet was something that they grew up with from very early childhood on, i.e. they "never saw the 'old world without consistently available internet' in their life". Whether this is bad or worse for work can be discussed endlessly ... ;-)
In this sense/usage, from my gut feeling I would thus argue that "digital natives" refers to "from late Gen Y on".
Ahavi/bonjour, mDNS, multicast, cups.d settings -- oof. Setting up a printer to run well on a network is actually a very frustrating task and will fail in surprising ways.
I'm a 35 year old software developer, and I'm painfully aware that I'll face it, sooner or later, and working my ass off to build professional network, skills and experience that will set me apart and keep me marketable.
However, I don't think this ageism is unfair, at least in my case. I already feel that I'm not as fast as I was in my 20s; I'll probably be even slower on my feet and harder to adapt and learn in my 40s. If I don't acquire meaningful and provable (two different, both equally important components) experience and wisdom, then not just the perception by hiring managers, but my objective value as a professional will decline.
[+] [-] CalRobert|2 years ago|reply
""" led managers to prioritise digital natives for open roles, believing they are more adaptable than Gen Xers """
I'm an old millenial and there's truth to the joke that we have to help our parents AND our kids fix their printers. I have found the complete lack of fundamental computer skills in younger candidates ("what is a directory? Why would I ever need the terminal?") to be a challenge.
[+] [-] baq|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] basisword|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rob74|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] JTyQZSnP3cQGa8B|2 years ago|reply
They stick to what they know (usually C# or Typescript) and they have problems if they need to use a new tool or language.
[+] [-] sarreph|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] a_gnostic|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] JumpCrisscross|2 years ago|reply
Outside elite software engineering, as in writing papers engineering, isn’t this becoming more an art than a skill with LLMs?
[+] [-] stranded22|2 years ago|reply
I had to teach Excel to apprentices when they joined - just because they are digital natives, doesn’t mean they can actually use business tools.
[+] [-] ryandrake|2 years ago|reply
What is Gen Z’s “technology progression” look like? iPhone6->iPhone X->iPhone 13->iPhone 15->and on and on… yawn. Development-wise it’s varying versions of Xcode and/or js frameworks, I guess, and now on to AI prompts. I feel like they missed out on so much!
[+] [-] troyvit|2 years ago|reply
Back in the day I thought GenX was all about rebellion, absurdism, and a laugh-behind-your-hand-while-you-take-the-check anti-corporate stance. That's still working for me and I'm having the time of my life learning or dying because that _is_ life.
Anyway get off my lawn, I have to go ask an AI how to manage people.
[+] [-] colpabar|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] duggan|2 years ago|reply
Being in a series of small startups for most of my career I haven't done a lot of hiring, but I've always aimed for people with more experience than me, so they tend to be older. And man, good software developers with 20+ years of experience are _so_ good that it's hard to imagine anyone passing them up.
[+] [-] ChrisMarshallNY|2 years ago|reply
In Ye Olde Days, most companies were run by folks in their fifties. These people (the good ones, anyway) knew that they had to have the energy, enthusiasm, and creativity of youth, but were also quite aware of the need for structure, stability and confidence that only comes with experience.
Since older folks had the money and power, younger ones were forced to work with them. Now that youth has the money and power, it seems as if they don't feel the need to have older folks around.
[+] [-] caseyy|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rightbyte|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gilbetron|2 years ago|reply
I mean, when I started, there was maybe 100k "computer programmers" in the US. Now there are millions.
[+] [-] scelerat|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ryandrake|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] boffinAudio|2 years ago|reply
Do not stop learning. Ever.
Seriously. Just because you graduated with a piece of paper doesn't mean you can stop studying. This is a fatal mistake.
Study the things that will make it easier and more effective for you to exchange with others.
Your diploma isn't worth a THING until you've actually delivered something - a product or service - to the world, which someone, somewhere is willing to pay for.
Until you've actually exchanged something with the world, you are of little use to it.
That is a cold hard fact, which you can either resist or embrace.
That sense of entitlement you might feel? That is what you need to work on. There is no such thing as a free lunch.
[+] [-] mancerayder|2 years ago|reply
The only ways to learn:
All hideous options if you ask me.[+] [-] 0xedd|2 years ago|reply
Effectively no one is debugging assembly. But, I'm supposed to be convinced "someone will need to be there when things break"? Come on. There are millions in the field worldwide.
What you say is true, from my own experience as well. That said, it feels like a career change is in order simply to be able to continue to provide 10 years from now (There's another 30+ years I need to work before they let me die).
[+] [-] kreck|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] itronitron|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Cloudef|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ImHereToVote|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] baq|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pjmlp|2 years ago|reply
However there are plenty of workarounds employed by companies anyway.
[+] [-] hayst4ck|2 years ago|reply
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_action_problem
[+] [-] astura|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] switch007|2 years ago|reply
I didn't find the article particularly insightful. And ageism isn't a new phenomenon
[+] [-] ryandrake|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 1vuio0pswjnm7|2 years ago|reply
https://www.bbc.co.uk/worklife/article/20240320-gen-x-workpl...
https://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?d=2703170581749&w=cNxiEqqAGe...
[+] [-] ilaksh|2 years ago|reply
The phrase "had to learn or die" has an implicit assumption that Gen X may have trouble adjusting to new technology.
[+] [-] glimshe|2 years ago|reply
My desk was a mess of serial cables, MIDI cables, speaker and headphone cables. My "Internet" was dialed through manual Hayes modem commands and later required starting Trumpet Winsock. I spent hours squeezing 10K out of my DOS low memory for games or Win 3.1.
I had to partition my multiple drives, get more HDD space using Stacker and worry about FAT16/FAT32. I had to worry about 16-bit compatibility in Windows and DirectX minor versions.
Now some jerk comes and tells me I can't use some slow and ridiculous browser-based software?
Gimme a break. My teenager can't sneeze without checking how to do it on YouTube.
[+] [-] aleph_minus_one|2 years ago|reply
I had this kind of discussion with people who make good money managing digitalization projects.
Under the term "digitalization" (somewhat confusingly) companies understand "make (often service) X available via the internet". Similarly "digital" means "connected to the internet" (i.e. punchcards are not digital :-) ). This is a different usage of these terms than in engineering, but this usage is rather consistent.
The term "natives" in "digital natives" refers to the fact that this is the first generation for which (rather consistently available) internet was something that they grew up with from very early childhood on, i.e. they "never saw the 'old world without consistently available internet' in their life". Whether this is bad or worse for work can be discussed endlessly ... ;-)
In this sense/usage, from my gut feeling I would thus argue that "digital natives" refers to "from late Gen Y on".
[+] [-] matthewaveryusa|2 years ago|reply
Ahavi/bonjour, mDNS, multicast, cups.d settings -- oof. Setting up a printer to run well on a network is actually a very frustrating task and will fail in surprising ways.
[+] [-] ChrisArchitect|2 years ago|reply
Ageism Haunts Some Tech Workers in the Race to Get Hired
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39696419
[+] [-] pjmlp|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] yonisto|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] binary132|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] golergka|2 years ago|reply
However, I don't think this ageism is unfair, at least in my case. I already feel that I'm not as fast as I was in my 20s; I'll probably be even slower on my feet and harder to adapt and learn in my 40s. If I don't acquire meaningful and provable (two different, both equally important components) experience and wisdom, then not just the perception by hiring managers, but my objective value as a professional will decline.