[irfwashere]

Clearly you are ignoring the history of the conflict and the desires of the Russians, and thereby the entire reason for the invasion. It was explained clearly many times prior to the invasion that they would go ahead and do so if you ignore their security concerns.

Remember when they put missiles in Cuba? We can't ignore their security concerns and pretend facts exist in a vacuum.

[fabian2k]

You are justifying an illegal war of aggression here.

Claiming some nebulous security concerns does not justify invading a sovereign nation. Ukraine did express their desire to join NATO, that is their right as a sovereign nation. Russia does not have a right to control what their neighbours do. Your argument is denying Ukrainian Sovereignty.

Nuclear weapons are a special case, which is why we have treaties today that limit certain types of them. Cuba is not a comparable case here at all.

[LargoLasskhyfv]

Ahem! Remember "The Cuban Missile Crisis, also known as the October Crisis (Spanish: Crisis de Octubre) in Cuba, or the Caribbean Crisis (Russian: Карибский кризис, romanized: Karibskiy krizis), was a 13-day confrontation between the governments of the United States and the Soviet Union, when American deployments of nuclear missiles in Italy and Turkey were matched by Soviet deployments of nuclear missiles in Cuba." ?

Source: Amongst countless others https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Missile_Crisis

[irfwashere]

Pretty sure their security concerns aren't nebulous. They only lost 27 million people. Not a big deal to you, maybe. But they will never forget and allow that to happen again. So yes, they are entitled to protecting themselves from that happening again.

If you want to pretend this is solely about abusing Ukrainian sovereignty then that's fine. The west was happy to abuse Ukrainian sovereignty in 2014 when their intelligence agencies helped overthrow their democratically elected government. So really your logic is just a ruse. The facts speak for themselves.