It’s remarkable that we’ve setup a system of torture and murder to achieve:
1. Production of food that from all available evidence is worse for humans than alternatives
2. Worsening of our greenhouse gas problem
3. Massive waste of land resources because of the inefficiency in having animals predigest plants for us
4. Massively increase the risk of spread of novel pathogens
5. Devastation of our antibiotics stock where over 80% of antibiotics are used on animals rather than humans
All these downsides (and more) for little to no upsides.
>Massive waste of land resources because of the inefficiency in having animals predigest plants for us
I'm not staunchly defending the beef industry or factory farming for that matter, but I believe much of the land used for cattle grazing out west is not arable land suitable for much else. At least not without a corresponding change in agricultural habits, like massive irrigation that further impact a stressed water resource.
I don't think that this is the calculation that is made at the grocery store. Immense profit for the companies that supply the meat and flavor for the purchasers of it. The only people that actively know they are getting fucked is the farmers themselves. In terms of health, I'd rather someone in the west eat steak than potato chips and candy.
1. Livestock is a really good energy storage. In case of war, natural disaster crops diseases there is a backup. Most people that survived Holodomor, because the had cows.
2. No animal protein maybe bad for your health (meat is a different story)
The diet is more carb rich and less nutrious than if meat was included.
If meat was never sold that would be the best option. And that is Buddhist Pali Cannon advice on Right Livlihood btw.
My gums receeded and my teeth were in the worse shape of my life. Although i was able to perform strong physical acts i got tired faster, had more emotional issues and sex/fight drive was diminished slightly.
"We" didnt set the system up so stop blaming me and others whoo didnt you hatefull person. "Greenhouse gases" are recycled by plants and nature. We have Climate instability and the planets tempature changes over the years. Instead of spewing that to people you shold say, "We have a polution problem" or "We have an industrial chemical problem" both which cause more death of the planet largely. You have been scammed. Global Warming has been an alarm bell since long before 2000. I was told as a child i would see the consequences and i really havent. Ive seen climate changes.
you cant raise a baby into a man without meat. It has been tried by vegans and what we see is that you need doctors and blood tests and a rich pleathora of bacterial-processed foods and fats and prteins. And all these things are alive too.
A cow can live a long happy life and then its body not 'fed right back to the ground' but instead feed us.
also the phytoestrogens in plants like almonds, soy, pistacios are not good, the lectins in beans Limit the absorpsion of food, grains have gluten which binds the gut..
The other items can be debated (although I don't agree with some of them) but this point "Production of food that from all available evidence is worse for humans than alternatives" is just flat out wrong.
How could a species that evolved as omnivores suddenly find meat unhealthy?
H5N1 is contagious for bird to bird transmission as they have the sialic acid receptors for infection in many places, Humans only have these receptors deep in the lungs, hence low human to human transmission. But H5N1 has like 50%+ mortality rate for humans if caught. So chicken farmers would be at super high risk. Now if it mutates to be more human to human transmissible we're in trouble.
They're ostensibly "at risk" but it's not "super high", not even close. There has only been one confirmed human cases of H5N1 in the US [1], which has the fifth most chickens of any country in the world. That one case was a poultry worker who was culling sick birds.
Chicken farmers have to go out of their way to get infected.
Only if it mutates to be more human to human transmissible without losing virulence. Which is definitely possible but not guaranteed. And there are so many other potentially deadly viruses out there that are only a few steps away from causing a new pandemic.
Why is this flagged? H5N1 is incredibly dangerous, with 60% human mortality, and could represent the next big threat to humanity. Let's hope the WHO and CEPI can get a head start on this one.
That's a wrong impression because raising healthy animals is doable and is still done quite a bit these days.
Most suppliers who sell meat branded as things like "from small family farms" or "biodynamic" generally adhere to practices that raise healthy animals. There also exists stubborn old farmers who don't bother with any of this marketing and branding foofoo who still raise animals that are just as healthy as the foofoo marketers.
There's unfortunately still no good certification or verification for sourcing meat from these good places. You basically have to either do the research yourself or rely on trustworthy suppliers to do the research and curating for you, like hippie-type food co-ops.
Of course, you'll definitely pay more. I'm personally very low income but still manage to afford it. Plenty of people are like me. But most people simply don't want to pay extra, even if they can.
Not at the rate that we consume it. But having beef, chicken and pork once per week? Definitely something that is healthier for our bodies, the planet and the livelihoods of these animals.
If you buy a 1/4 or 1/2 cow around here (MI) that is anywhere between $400-$1200 which should feed a family of 4 for about a year. That's getting you a humanely-raised cow that is significantly higher quality than what you would get at a grocery story. It works out to be slightly more expensive or on-par with the grocery store price but you do need a chest freezer.
We have much more stringent standards for cattle (and other animals), and yes, meat is more expensive here ($24/kg vs $11/kg for ground beef); on the other hand median salaries are also much higher ($90k/y vs $50k/y), so?
Only if we also insist on wasting as much as we do. You'd just not always be able to purchase any cut of any animal any time of the year. You'd be limited to cuts and species available with seasonable components. Wasteful excess is what the current modus operandi supports, not availability full stop. There is plenty of evidence that suggests this would offer health benefits as well, since if we cannot always eat our favorite cut, we eat more diverse portions of animals, which in turn means more diverse nutrition intake, as nature intended I guess.
The EU disagrees. There are vastly more regulations here and coupled with traditions, results in more healthy animal raising. Meat consumption is lower in all EU countries compared to the US, but that's also a good think because meat overconsumption is not good for people.
As for what I mean by tradition - for some brands of cheese it's mandatory that the cows/sheep/goats have grazed on specific types of vegetation in specific geographic areas for them to be eligible to be called that brand. Many popular brands of meat refer to specific races and specific types of raising (grazing in Normandy fields), and even butchers and supermarkets with a butchers' section list stuff like "grass fed" or "chickens that lived out in the open".
Buying from a niche, hipster-y local family farm (that shipped across the US through an online web store), it was about double what you pay in your local grocers, and that meat was so legit and delicious and high quality. I absolutely overcooked the T-bone steak and it still melted in my mouth.
One thing to keep in mind is that real beef, grass fed and grazing etc, has a much more gamey taste than Americans like. America really likes it's homogenized "meat" flavor
Veganism is an answer but the not right one, when it comes to veganism it's always "all or nothing". To many processed foods in that industry; simulated alternatives are terrible for your health. No, I wouldn't eat lab-grown meat.
Vegan Cheese, Burgers are all fattening and lack any actual goodness found in the real produce. And now that SuperCorps have footings in the industry it's further pumped with sugar and other ill-chemicals.
I've been vegan, I've eaten meat. And I'm now vegetarian - only eating locally sourced animal produce minus meat and death.
So take this scenario; I like cheese on my pizza. What can I have for alternative? The vegan cheese I have in my fridge, looking at the label, the full list of ingredients boasts nothing great. I'd argue less quality than if I was to go to a local farm-shop and buy locally sourced cheese.
But the merit is that the animal didn't suffer for my pizza. But did it suffer if it was produced in humane conditions? Hand milking a cow is harmless to the cow, cheese comes from that milk; where's the problem in that scenario?
Eat meat isn't inherently bad, is it cruel, debatable, and yes it is in my eyes. But you can't rule out that animals are not food sources. As are humans but we deem cannibalism as a taboo.
But to deem everything from an animal is an extreme side of veganism that's always thrown in people's faces. But as my example above there has been no harm, it's all natural as life intended.
The inhumane measures we force animals in to is where the problem lies.
People requiring "food now" where fast food chains pumping their product with chemicals; where animals have been fuelled with hormones to produce quota is.
Factory farming where animals are forced to live in cramped paddocks, abused, mistreated, beaten is what is.
The slavery, trading, trafficking, is what is.
Going to a proper butcher and eating proper meat from where an animal has been brought up in humane conditions was common practice for a long while until convenience came around.
Animal produce has turned in to a commodity, where once upon a time it was an occasional meal, now it's an everyday meal which is why it's wrong. Animals were naturally healthy back then.
This strain has a 60-70% mortality rate in humans in known cases. Spread in mammals would be a bit concerning.
> Due to the high lethality and virulence of HPAI A(H5N1), its endemic presence, its increasingly large host reservoir, and its significant ongoing mutations, in 2006, the H5N1 virus has been regarded to be the world's largest pandemic threat, and billions of dollars are being spent researching H5N1 and preparing for a potential influenza pandemic.
[+] [-] addicted|2 years ago|reply
All these downsides (and more) for little to no upsides.
[+] [-] bumby|2 years ago|reply
I'm not staunchly defending the beef industry or factory farming for that matter, but I believe much of the land used for cattle grazing out west is not arable land suitable for much else. At least not without a corresponding change in agricultural habits, like massive irrigation that further impact a stressed water resource.
[+] [-] pc86|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jelsisi|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ed_balls|2 years ago|reply
1. Livestock is a really good energy storage. In case of war, natural disaster crops diseases there is a backup. Most people that survived Holodomor, because the had cows.
2. No animal protein maybe bad for your health (meat is a different story)
3. Crops need a lot of herbicide
[+] [-] lolbullshit|2 years ago|reply
The diet is more carb rich and less nutrious than if meat was included.
If meat was never sold that would be the best option. And that is Buddhist Pali Cannon advice on Right Livlihood btw.
My gums receeded and my teeth were in the worse shape of my life. Although i was able to perform strong physical acts i got tired faster, had more emotional issues and sex/fight drive was diminished slightly.
"We" didnt set the system up so stop blaming me and others whoo didnt you hatefull person. "Greenhouse gases" are recycled by plants and nature. We have Climate instability and the planets tempature changes over the years. Instead of spewing that to people you shold say, "We have a polution problem" or "We have an industrial chemical problem" both which cause more death of the planet largely. You have been scammed. Global Warming has been an alarm bell since long before 2000. I was told as a child i would see the consequences and i really havent. Ive seen climate changes.
you cant raise a baby into a man without meat. It has been tried by vegans and what we see is that you need doctors and blood tests and a rich pleathora of bacterial-processed foods and fats and prteins. And all these things are alive too.
A cow can live a long happy life and then its body not 'fed right back to the ground' but instead feed us.
also the phytoestrogens in plants like almonds, soy, pistacios are not good, the lectins in beans Limit the absorpsion of food, grains have gluten which binds the gut..
[+] [-] gadders|2 years ago|reply
How could a species that evolved as omnivores suddenly find meat unhealthy?
[+] [-] pvaldes|2 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] eimrine|2 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] sschueller|2 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] 082349872349872|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] JoshTko|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] throwup238|2 years ago|reply
They're ostensibly "at risk" but it's not "super high", not even close. There has only been one confirmed human cases of H5N1 in the US [1], which has the fifth most chickens of any country in the world. That one case was a poultry worker who was culling sick birds.
Chicken farmers have to go out of their way to get infected.
[1] https://www.cdc.gov/flu/avianflu/chart-epi-curve-ah5n1.html
[+] [-] sarchertech|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jaybrendansmith|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] k__|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] VoodooJuJu|2 years ago|reply
Most suppliers who sell meat branded as things like "from small family farms" or "biodynamic" generally adhere to practices that raise healthy animals. There also exists stubborn old farmers who don't bother with any of this marketing and branding foofoo who still raise animals that are just as healthy as the foofoo marketers.
There's unfortunately still no good certification or verification for sourcing meat from these good places. You basically have to either do the research yourself or rely on trustworthy suppliers to do the research and curating for you, like hippie-type food co-ops.
Of course, you'll definitely pay more. I'm personally very low income but still manage to afford it. Plenty of people are like me. But most people simply don't want to pay extra, even if they can.
[+] [-] jelsisi|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] theryan|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 082349872349872|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Grimblewald|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sofixa|2 years ago|reply
As for what I mean by tradition - for some brands of cheese it's mandatory that the cows/sheep/goats have grazed on specific types of vegetation in specific geographic areas for them to be eligible to be called that brand. Many popular brands of meat refer to specific races and specific types of raising (grazing in Normandy fields), and even butchers and supermarkets with a butchers' section list stuff like "grass fed" or "chickens that lived out in the open".
[+] [-] mrguyorama|2 years ago|reply
One thing to keep in mind is that real beef, grass fed and grazing etc, has a much more gamey taste than Americans like. America really likes it's homogenized "meat" flavor
[+] [-] ChrisArchitect|2 years ago|reply
Discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39822476
[+] [-] zoklet-enjoyer|2 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] doublerabbit|2 years ago|reply
Vegan Cheese, Burgers are all fattening and lack any actual goodness found in the real produce. And now that SuperCorps have footings in the industry it's further pumped with sugar and other ill-chemicals.
I've been vegan, I've eaten meat. And I'm now vegetarian - only eating locally sourced animal produce minus meat and death.
So take this scenario; I like cheese on my pizza. What can I have for alternative? The vegan cheese I have in my fridge, looking at the label, the full list of ingredients boasts nothing great. I'd argue less quality than if I was to go to a local farm-shop and buy locally sourced cheese.
But the merit is that the animal didn't suffer for my pizza. But did it suffer if it was produced in humane conditions? Hand milking a cow is harmless to the cow, cheese comes from that milk; where's the problem in that scenario?
Eat meat isn't inherently bad, is it cruel, debatable, and yes it is in my eyes. But you can't rule out that animals are not food sources. As are humans but we deem cannibalism as a taboo.
But to deem everything from an animal is an extreme side of veganism that's always thrown in people's faces. But as my example above there has been no harm, it's all natural as life intended.
The inhumane measures we force animals in to is where the problem lies.
People requiring "food now" where fast food chains pumping their product with chemicals; where animals have been fuelled with hormones to produce quota is.
Factory farming where animals are forced to live in cramped paddocks, abused, mistreated, beaten is what is.
The slavery, trading, trafficking, is what is.
Going to a proper butcher and eating proper meat from where an animal has been brought up in humane conditions was common practice for a long while until convenience came around.
Animal produce has turned in to a commodity, where once upon a time it was an occasional meal, now it's an everyday meal which is why it's wrong. Animals were naturally healthy back then.
[+] [-] chrisco255|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Aurornis|2 years ago|reply
> around 60% of humans known to have been infected with the Asian strain of HPAI A(H5N1) have died from it
It’s not just about the cows.
[+] [-] rapjr9|2 years ago|reply
Sounds like there is some concern.
[+] [-] aredox|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ceejayoz|2 years ago|reply
> Due to the high lethality and virulence of HPAI A(H5N1), its endemic presence, its increasingly large host reservoir, and its significant ongoing mutations, in 2006, the H5N1 virus has been regarded to be the world's largest pandemic threat, and billions of dollars are being spent researching H5N1 and preparing for a potential influenza pandemic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influenza_A_virus_subtype_H5N1
(Complicated a bit by unknown prevalence of mild cases, but it’s not a nothing burger.)