[amanj41]

Wasn't Madoff's plan the whole time to pocket investor money for himself, whereas Sam's was to arrogantly (and illegally) gamble it with the thought being he could return the principal from Alameda back to FTX in future? Genuine question, I'm not super informed on these.

[rgbrenner]

Sam paid and loaned to himself $2.2B (and another $1B to top execs) out of the $8B that was lost. That doesn't include the Bahamas real estate; trabuccos yacht; celebrity endorsements; stadium naming; or the private planes to deliver amazon packages to the bahamas.

The idea that Sam was just a risky investor is the story Sam wants to tell. But he already told that story in court, and it was rejected.. because the evidence doesn't support it.

[nostromo]

No, SBF did directly steal from FTX users. He used an intermediary (Alameda) to do so. The end result is the same: he stole from customers to enrich himself, his family and his friends.

I'm sure both SBF and Madoff originally thought they would be able to make enough money to cover up the theft.

[bennyhill]

From what I read Madoff didn't seem to, he never actually tried to invest the money and couldn't really have expected his ponzi scheme to become a permanent engine of the economy or anything..

I don't really think that has the moral conclusion people try to imply though. Thinking they could get away with it as a permanent secret gap that no one need ever know about is actually a worse moral character.

[baruz]

Madoff was supposedly on the level for some 25-31 years. He started business as a broker-dealer and money manager in 1960. Madoff claimed that he started just putting fund contributions in a personal account in 1991, but prosecutors think he was at it sometime in the 1980s, maybe since Black Monday in 1987?

[nickff]

From what I’ve read, it’s not exactly clear that Madoff had a plan, it seems more like he lied to a few people about being able to make them a lot of money, and that snowballed into him taking a lot of “investments” that he didn’t know what to do with.

From what I’ve seen about SBF, it does seem like he has a very high risk tolerance, was betting big to win big, and thinking the reward was worth the risk.

[rmbyrro]

Yea, ponzi schemes start by accident. It requires no planning

[tim333]

Funnily enough if SBF hadn't been found out the investments probably would have recovered enough to cover the deposits and he'd still be a hero.

[alex_lav]

You can't believe how people can think intent matters?