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nimbleal | 1 year ago

I’m not sure this makes sense. Lots of phenomena — including those possessed by biological organisms — exist without there being any evolutionary imperative for their existence. For your argument to work, would you not have to demonstrate that consciousness is necessarily more like, say, animal fur than possessing mass or heat.

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mannykannot|1 year ago

> Lots of phenomena — including those possessed by biological organisms — exist without there being any evolutionary imperative for their existence.

There are certainly many things, such as the specific patterning of a moth's camouflage, where a certain amount of chance is involved, and there are Gould's "spandrels" - features that exist, not for themselves, but because constraints on what is possible require them - but anything significant that makes no sense in terms of evolution would be a matter of the greatest significance in biology.

But this is beside the point here, as there is no difficulty (except perhaps self-imposed ones) in seeing the utility of consciousness.

kipchak|1 year ago

I have trouble seeing the definite utility of consciousness in terms of evolutionary fitness.

Assuming consciousness isn't somehow necessary for intelligence or associative learning and that it plays a somewhat subserviently role to unconscious mechanisms, consciousness seems potentially less efficient than unconscious mechanisms. For example when physically avoiding a collision while driving conscious thought is often too slow.

Intuitively the role of consciousness as a supervisor of faster unconscious mechanisms seems to be to review the unconscious and perform some sort of steering or review of it. But I'm not sure it's obvious consciousness is effective at doing this.

For example in ironic process theory trying to consciously will away a thought takes resources which increases the prevalence of that thought. "Try to pose for yourself this task: not to think of a polar bear, and you will see that the cursed thing will come to mind every minute."

Some of the concerns for consciousness in a evolutionary model are better outlined here.

https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/psychology/articles/10....

asimovfan|1 year ago

Can you give a few examples? I was of the impression that the idea was that there is an evolutionary explanation to everything, be it known or not. With biological organisms i mean.