Alibaba co-founder and Chair: China, Jack Ma, AI and basketball
And while smart and sympathetic, I cannot help to think that Alibaba is a company of the past belonging to a time of a certain US-China order that is no more. The future of Chinese tech belongs to companies that are much more fast moving, fearless, and aggressively deep tech than what Alibaba aspires to be.
Alibaba was fast moving, fearless and aggressively deep tech, you don't survive the world of Chinese e-commerce if you aren't. They were decapitated and neutered by the Chinese state when they started to show signs of upending the existing order, specifically building a competing financial system (Alipay/Ant) and daring to call out Chinese economic orthodoxy.
> The future of Chinese tech belongs to companies that are much more fast moving, fearless, and aggressively deep tech than what Alibaba aspires to be.
Being all of that is exactly why Jack Ma got beat down by the party. The party doesn't want fast moving, fearless, aggressively deep tech, they want control, compliance, and stability.
What is the irr for Softbank's investment in Alibaba? If given another chance would they do it again? I believe the answer is yes, so there is no lack of risk capital. Is China willing to pay for talent? Absolutely. Given these two factors I think China can climb the technology ladder. Just a question of time.
However this doesn't mean China's GDP will get back to fast growth. Its economy is constrained by demand, not supply. Anyone who has experience with Chinese elders would know how thrifty they are no matter how much wealth they have.
> The future of Chinese tech belongs to companies that are much more fast moving
Not at all. The future of Chinese tech is state owned enterprises [1]. Just like other Chinese industries, such as state owned real estates [2] or state run communal restaurants [3]. Just like Soviet Union, before it fell.
"The Peterson Institute for International Economics analyzed the market capitalization of China's top 100 companies. It found that the share of total market capitalization held by state-controlled enterprises, in which the government holds a stake of 50% or more, rose to 50% by the end of 2023, the highest proportion in five years"
He gazed up at the enormous face. Forty years it had taken him to learn what kind of smile was hidden beneath the dark moustache. O cruel, needless misunderstanding! O stubborn, self-willed exile from the loving breast! Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother.
Just going by appearances, the story at the time looked a lot like Jack Ma fleeing the country for a bit. One minute he was disturbing the tranquillity in China then the next he was picking up some Zen among the cherry blossoms.
It is interesting to compare-and-contrast Jack Ma and Elon Musk who seems to me the nearest analogue in the US. How their host countries treat them says a lot about the real cultural differences between Washington and Beijing. For all America's problems - at least up to Trump level annoying the politicians - it is safe to build wealth in the US.
I'm not sure it is safe to build wealth anywhere, anymore, although the US is the country I chose to register my company in, because it is probably the safest. Still, I have my reservations. Petty theft like shoplifting is being increasingly normalized and justified in the US (see train package theft), and enforcement of property law is slipping, see how home owners can lose their home to "squatting". This is a very slippery slope which I hope doesn't go the way of the Bolshevik revolution, but anything is possible.
China is still ruled by communism, the goverment has a majority share in every company.
That's bad for entrepreneurs, but also means that they can have the entire power of CCP behind them. There are tons of example where a small company started by stealing from western competitors then suddenly produced a huge pile of cash out of nowhere to bought those competitors and took over their marketshare in the west.
Jack Ma didn't just try to build wealth like your average mid sized software or HVAC company. He built a monopoly and the company was fined for it and eventually broken up [0]. He obviously didn't like this and left the country to do billionaire things.
To me there's nothing 1984 or dystopian about this. The guy was building a company that was hurting the people. If anything we need more of this in the US.
It's safe to build wealth in PRC, plenty of 10-100 millionaires.
It's also safe to build OBSCENE wealth in PRC, but it comes with more political caveats. Like not trying circumvent regulators by launching irresponsible fintech.
Which system is better depends on how much you value checking billionaires.
Oh yeah the US is so much better, a place where the largest source of bankruptcy is medical bankruptcy, people need to go into massive debt to get a college degree to have any chance of a middle class life and unless you have something that can make the elites even more extremely wealthy than they already are (programmer, engineer) then your chances of getting them to part with any of their wealth is slim to none.
This is such a beautiful life isn't it? Im not saying China is any better, but come on man. Have some empathy for all the people that have been crushed by this system whether its the poor, the people on the receiving end in Gaza/Iraq/Iran/Pakistan/Venezuela or just the people unlucky to not be born at a competitive level.
I understand the feeling, but on the other hand I don't think these are good examples because these people have gotten filthy rich and it's not clear to me if we actually need such accumulation of wealth. There's probably a healthy cap somewhere, the same way power is capped in the government.
The last blurb in the article is the most damning part.
"Ma spends much of his time abroad, especially in Japan where he is a visiting professor at Tokyo College, a research institute run by the University of Tokyo"
Jack Ma has no hope for China, as evident by his action. The long internal post may have been requested by the Chinese government, or his staff, to somehow rally Alibaba's failing image. But Jack sees the real pictures on the ground in China. And he chooses Japan.
And the young in China knows it too. That's why the young are laying flat. and sneaking through Mexico into US. and fleeing to Cambodia and Myanmar for work.
Of course he has no hope. I recall he suddenly disappeared for a long time after criticizing the Chinese government. It seems entirely possible he was held against his will for forced reeducation. Hard to believe in the country that does that to you.
There's one in the city where I live. Her fortune is a company (you have all heard its name) so in a certain sense her wealth is putting a number on a large number of voters' jobs.
Recently the company decided it needed a plot of land, located in the middle between there of its sites. It got that plot.
Call it an oligarch or call it well-paid voters' jobs. I think the later is truer.
That's because there are no safeguards and failsafes to keep authority in check.
When Winnie the Pooh orders you to jump, your only permitted responses are Yes or How high? unless you want to be deleted (no, not killed, deleted) from the face of the planet and any and all records known to China.
Same goes for Russia and other authoritarian regimes.
Seeing Jack Ma come out like this makes me think things are very grim in China and I been obsessively following it for years.
Historically, no country has survived without paying its government workers for more than 24 months.
China has just entered its 16th month. so roughly 8 months remaining. coincidentally the new US president will be announced around then.
So far the actions of Israel, Russia's confidence suggests Trump re-election. China appears to be waiting and speed running its military re-armament but I wonder if decades of neglect can be overcome within just 3 quarters...
[+] [-] ThePowerOfFuet|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] throwaway4good|1 year ago|reply
https://www.nbim.no/en/publications/podcast/alibaba-co-found...
Alibaba co-founder and Chair: China, Jack Ma, AI and basketball
And while smart and sympathetic, I cannot help to think that Alibaba is a company of the past belonging to a time of a certain US-China order that is no more. The future of Chinese tech belongs to companies that are much more fast moving, fearless, and aggressively deep tech than what Alibaba aspires to be.
[+] [-] resolutebat|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] seanmcdirmid|1 year ago|reply
Being all of that is exactly why Jack Ma got beat down by the party. The party doesn't want fast moving, fearless, aggressively deep tech, they want control, compliance, and stability.
[+] [-] fspeech|1 year ago|reply
However this doesn't mean China's GDP will get back to fast growth. Its economy is constrained by demand, not supply. Anyone who has experience with Chinese elders would know how thrifty they are no matter how much wealth they have.
[+] [-] amou234|1 year ago|reply
Not at all. The future of Chinese tech is state owned enterprises [1]. Just like other Chinese industries, such as state owned real estates [2] or state run communal restaurants [3]. Just like Soviet Union, before it fell.
"The Peterson Institute for International Economics analyzed the market capitalization of China's top 100 companies. It found that the share of total market capitalization held by state-controlled enterprises, in which the government holds a stake of 50% or more, rose to 50% by the end of 2023, the highest proportion in five years"
[1] China's favored state-owned companies squeeze private sector https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Markets/China-s-favored-sta... [2] https://www.reuters.com/world/china/chinas-state-owned-devel... [3] https://www.thinkchina.sg/not-everything-has-be-run-state-th...
[+] [-] tjpnz|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] Log_out_|1 year ago|reply
Good thing democratic countries regularly build up their foes in the name of market forces. Couldn't have worldwars without that..
[+] [-] unknown|1 year ago|reply
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[+] [-] unknown|1 year ago|reply
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[+] [-] roenxi|1 year ago|reply
It is interesting to compare-and-contrast Jack Ma and Elon Musk who seems to me the nearest analogue in the US. How their host countries treat them says a lot about the real cultural differences between Washington and Beijing. For all America's problems - at least up to Trump level annoying the politicians - it is safe to build wealth in the US.
[+] [-] _xnmw|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] daghamm|1 year ago|reply
That's bad for entrepreneurs, but also means that they can have the entire power of CCP behind them. There are tons of example where a small company started by stealing from western competitors then suddenly produced a huge pile of cash out of nowhere to bought those competitors and took over their marketshare in the west.
[+] [-] winrid|1 year ago|reply
To me there's nothing 1984 or dystopian about this. The guy was building a company that was hurting the people. If anything we need more of this in the US.
[0] https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/07/07/tech...
[+] [-] KerrAvon|1 year ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] aaron695|1 year ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] gmerc|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] maxglute|1 year ago|reply
It's safe to build OBSCENE wealth in the states.
It's safe to build wealth in PRC, plenty of 10-100 millionaires.
It's also safe to build OBSCENE wealth in PRC, but it comes with more political caveats. Like not trying circumvent regulators by launching irresponsible fintech.
Which system is better depends on how much you value checking billionaires.
[+] [-] nebula8804|1 year ago|reply
This is such a beautiful life isn't it? Im not saying China is any better, but come on man. Have some empathy for all the people that have been crushed by this system whether its the poor, the people on the receiving end in Gaza/Iraq/Iran/Pakistan/Venezuela or just the people unlucky to not be born at a competitive level.
[+] [-] baby|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] bugbuddy|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] mannyv|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] amou234|1 year ago|reply
"Ma spends much of his time abroad, especially in Japan where he is a visiting professor at Tokyo College, a research institute run by the University of Tokyo"
Jack Ma has no hope for China, as evident by his action. The long internal post may have been requested by the Chinese government, or his staff, to somehow rally Alibaba's failing image. But Jack sees the real pictures on the ground in China. And he chooses Japan.
And the young in China knows it too. That's why the young are laying flat. and sneaking through Mexico into US. and fleeing to Cambodia and Myanmar for work.
[+] [-] appplication|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] fransje26|1 year ago|reply
Or directly written by them under his name..
[+] [-] somedude895|1 year ago|reply
Could have been written simply out of fear as well. No matter where he goes, he's not safe from the CCP, so better try and stay in their good graces.
[+] [-] cm2187|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] starspangled|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] barfbagginus|1 year ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] gmerc|1 year ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] flooow|1 year ago|reply
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[+] [-] Arnt|1 year ago|reply
Recently the company decided it needed a plot of land, located in the middle between there of its sites. It got that plot.
Call it an oligarch or call it well-paid voters' jobs. I think the later is truer.
[+] [-] Dalewyn|1 year ago|reply
When Winnie the Pooh orders you to jump, your only permitted responses are Yes or How high? unless you want to be deleted (no, not killed, deleted) from the face of the planet and any and all records known to China.
Same goes for Russia and other authoritarian regimes.
[+] [-] IAMMidway|1 year ago|reply
They should punish billionaires that cross the people, not the government.
[+] [-] spxneo|1 year ago|reply
Historically, no country has survived without paying its government workers for more than 24 months.
China has just entered its 16th month. so roughly 8 months remaining. coincidentally the new US president will be announced around then.
So far the actions of Israel, Russia's confidence suggests Trump re-election. China appears to be waiting and speed running its military re-armament but I wonder if decades of neglect can be overcome within just 3 quarters...
[+] [-] carom|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] baby|1 year ago|reply