Missing option: (11) work remotely and live wherever you want.
Red Hat's virtualization team is based all around the world, in offices but also many remotees. I'm one of them and I like nothing more than sitting in my cottage garden on a sunny day with a laptop and wifi connection. It's a great place to think.
Agreed. I lived in the Bay Area for 10 years and while it's nice there, there are other places that are equally nice without the hassle of having to pay so much in rent. Think of it this way: Even if you cash out rather nicely from a startup (as I did), you still won't be able to afford to buy a house outright unless you want to go back to work right away.
I left for Austin, TX and I truly love it here. I'm running a tech company here, too, and so far we haven't had any problems finding talent--even a Python developer!
I wrote an article about living outside of the Valley, and whether it's worth it for you, here: http://www.erica.biz/2012/austin-vs-silicon-valley/ Nearly 2,000 people have read it, and there is some interesting discussion in the comments.
I tried to be the super flexible tenant recently. I needed to move 200 miles and I found the PERFECT place (http://imgur.com/a/XpksU) so I contacted the letting agency and asked for a viewing, they gave me a date a couple of days later so I booked my train tickets. Day of the viewing I get a call that it's cancelled, that sucks but we can re-arrange, so we re-arrange for a few days later and I swallow the loss on my train tickets (about $150) and order some more (this time paying a premium for refundable tickets) and again they cancel, so I re-arrange (and get a ticket refund, yay!), this time the viewing is for a day later so the tickets I needed were going to be $400 for ordering so late and so I decide whatever I'll go first class; it's only $100 extra and I can work from the train. Next day I go to the station, collect my tickets and board the train: finally I'm going to get to view my new home! My heart was set on the apartment... anyway 10 minutes into the journey I get a call, the viewing is cancelled and the apartment has been withdrawn from the market and unless I'm willing to buy it for $1m I can't live there... so I'm sitting in first class on a train using $500 tickets for no reason. Hurrah!
Anyway moral of the story is renting sucks and moving long distance also sucks, good article, next time I move a long distance I think I'll follow the advice and stay in the new place and look for apartments, much easier than travelling the entire distance frequently just to view.
Renting in SOMA right now is crazy, and 1 brs in the heart of SOMA near 4th and King are going for over $3000/month. If cost is an issue, places like SOMA, PacHeights, etc, are not good choices because it's super expensive. The danger with renting in SOMA is that unless you're moving into an old apartment, there is no rent control. If rent prices go up next year, you could find yourself paying $500+/month more next year.
Nob Hill, etc, has terrible, terrible parking. I have a good friend that lives there that I no longer visit unless it's in the middle of the day on Saturday, because of the terrible parking, you could literally spend 1 hr looking for parking after 6pm. If parking is not an issue (no car or get a scooter), then it's a viable option, but not having a car in the Bay Area ends up being severely limiting.
There are plenty of other cost-effective places on the west side of SF that can go for less than half the price of SOMA. For someone new moving into the area, my advice would be to get a cheap single place in Outer Sunset with hopefully a short-term lease, and then once you meet more people, you can band together with people that you know well and rent a bigger apartment somewhere else in the city. Signing a lease with someone that you don't know has tremendous long-tail risk, so I would take the hit in terms of moving a bit further away when you first move to SF, and do a lot of due diligence and get to know the city and your potential roommates better.
Another viable option is to not live in the city, especially if you don't work in the city. Places along the peninsula are much cheaper, and if you do work in FiDi or SOMA it's probably more cost effective to rent a place outside of SF and Caltrain it in.
My own strategy is:
1) Check Craigslist once an hour, or more depending on how much web surfing I'm doing.
2) If I find a place in an area that I like, I immediately contact them and ask for a showing that day or as soon as possible.
3) I come with all my documentation ready, including my checkbook.
4) If I like the place, I immediately submit an application.
5) Continue looking at other apartments, because they're no guarantee that I will get this one.
I've never personally heard of the law that says that you have to rent to the first qualified applicant, and it sounds unenforceable, so I wouldn't count on it. How do you determine who is "qualified"?
> There are plenty of other cost-effective places on the west side of SF that can go for less than half the price of SOMA
Exactly! Look at where Muni and BART end up and then look at places to rent in those locations. West Portal, Glen Park, Noe Valley, etc. There are a lot of cool choices with public transportation if you start looking.
For parking near Nob Hill, the Sutter-Stockton garage is the best I've found so far at $350/month. It's close to the Financial District and doesn't smell as bad as some places around here. SF may have some advantages for tech businesses but there are a lot of very good reasons to not open an office here.
You might also want to consider living in Oakland instead of San Francisco and taking BART to the city to work. My rent is 1/3 less and my commute (20 minutes door-to-door) is much shorter than that of many of my colleagues who live in the city.
Oakland is a big, heterogeneous city, with really nice districts that offer great dining, bars, and the usual city trappings.
That's a great point. When I first came out here, the friend's place I stayed at was in Oakland and the 20-25min BART ride to the Montgomery Station to get to work in SoMA wasn't bad at all.
I think the key is finding what you like. Some people like urban environments, others the suburbs, while some like the hybrid kind of areas like you find in Western SF.
In my opinion, to have a good work-life balance it's important you live somewhere you like.
Not just Oakland. The majority of the Bay Area exists to support commuting to San Francisco. The peninsula tech companies are actually a newer phenomenon.
Obviously there's a lot of demand in SOMA, but one suggestion to anyone thinking of living there: spend some time wandering around, both during the day and during the evening, and see if you like the vibe of the neighborhood (this advice holds true for any neighborhood, really). I say this because I lived in an area that seemed desirable — about 5 minutes away from the 4th & King Caltrain, at 4th and Brannan, and, while it didn't seem so bad at the time, in hindsight I've come to realize that I really wasn't very happy there.
It's very convenient for work, but it doesn't feel like a neighborhood at all. Everything seems to close around 8pm and most of your friends probably aren't going to be hanging out around there. Yes, there are a handful of cafes around and you can find a few blocks that are busier, but in general it just feels like a generic chunk of tall buildings — I found it pretty gloomy.
I couldn't agree more. SOMA is a terrible place to live if you're under 30 and want urban nightlife. SOMA has some cool places with a bit of character... District, 25 Lusk and 21st Amendment, but on the whole it feels either very sterile or very industrial. If I had it to do over again, I would have braved the 20 minute commute and lived in somewhere that had more culture... the haight, mission, pac heights or (gasp) marina.
You put a lot of work into this article and wrote quite a few great tips when looking for a place to live in SF.
Unfortunately you undermined the entire post with your "immigrants" comment. In fact you made yourself look like a huge bigot. That sucks because it was otherwise well written and useful.
It's sad that this is going largely unnoticed by the rest of the comments on this post.
Haha. I hadn't realized that PC has come so far that you are no longer allowed to recognize or comment on immigrant neighborhoods.
There's lots of poor people and Spanish speaking people in the mission. This is good if you like Taquerias, bad if you dislike grime. If you don't fit in with homeless, hipster, or Latin culture, you will feel like an outsider. Some people may like it, some people may not. But if you don't like it, you are no longer allowed to say so!
I'm guessing that his offense is not embracing Latin culture. It is okay to dislike homeless culture, because
everyone does, or hipster culture, since it is predominantly White. But you aren't allowed to dislike Latin culture, since it is non-European and therefore protected. Interesting.
Let's say I'm a Finnish person, which is true, and I move from Finland to SF.
Upon moving to SF, I'm aware that I'm an immigrant there, just like any others who moved in to the US from another country.
Now, if someone tells me that a specific area is full of "hipsters, homeless and immigrants", this will be my reaction:
"Oh? Apparently a lot of immigrants have ended up in an area with a considerable number of hipsters and homeless people. I guess it's a cheaper area then, but I wonder why the hipsters are comfortable with so many homeless people around."
I have no reason to doubt that's an accurate description of the way things are, and I have no reason to get offended by an accurate description of the way things are. Besides, I am an immigrant, and I know that there's nothing wrong with being one.
I'm not getting it. I lived abroad a lot before moving to SF, and so I picked the Mission because it had a lot of immigrants. I think it makes a place more interesting.
Read this post right up to the following line, "There’s also huge differences from neighborhood to neighborhood as you are unlikely to find someone interested in the Mission (hipsters, homeless and immigrants)"
Pretty repulsive point of view IMHO.
EDIT: I am a recent immigrant to the United States
It also seems a bit off descriptively, because the Mission over the past ~20 years has been filling up with techies, to the extent that a lot of the locals have been complaining about gentrification. Especially true for anything near the 16th St. BART.
I love the Mission. When I lived in SF at least half of my friends lived there. With the diverse culture, all the taquerias, the beautiful houses, Dolores Park, the nightlife, and the BART right there, it is very, very easy to find lots of people interested in living in the Mission.
If you don't have any friends you can stay with in San Francisco, a good alternative is booking a bed in a hostel for a few weeks. They're cheap (as low as $25/day, if you're willing to share a room with a few people), centrally located, and sometimes offer perks like free breakfast and coffee. You should take a few extra precautions with your valuables -- I keep my laptop, wallet, and phone next to me when I sleep, instead of putting them in the locker -- but most of the people who pass through are young travelers. There are plenty of options to choose from in the Tendernob, which is basically a hostel/student district, and not nearly as bad as this blog post makes it sound.
I'm looking to make this move in August and some of the advice here won't work for me.
For instance, I can't get a reference from a past landlord or a list of past landlords - I'm just graduating college and have lived in on-campus housing my whole time.
I'm hoping having a very good credit score and a very good offer letter in hand will solve this issue, but I'm not sure.
Additionally, I can't move out mid-month and look for an apartment starting at the beginning of the next - my job starts mid-month and I've moving out at the beginning.
Any advice for how to deal with these situations? Thanks!
This is very interesting. I just moved to San Francisco from Beijing, myself!
I got here at about the beginning of the month, stayed 3 days in a hostel, 4 more days at a friend's place in Oakland and then signed a lease for a place in the heart of Chinatown. It's a fairly small room and the kitchen and showers are shared, but at $500/month all my acquaintances are saying I got a fairly good deal.
My trick was I got the landlord's number from a friend in Beijing the week before I left. Having friends in Oakland was just total luck. I'd met them years ago in Taiwan! All in all, Chinatown is pretty nice. It's safe, there's a ton of fresh produce to buy all over the place and things are cheap.
The two things which would be downsides for some are the hilliness and the Cantonese speaking community. I hated the hills when I was carrying my stuff across town, but now I generally appreciate the exercise while walking and the fun while on wheels. I do have a huge advantage being literate in Chinese characters, and Mandarin is more useful than English in a lot of areas, which mitigates some of the issues being surrounded by Cantonese.
I'm not working yet, but I've been going to a lot of Ruby and JS meet-ups, and it's generally a sub half-hour walk to any of their offices. All in all, I like it. I just have to avoid the Tenderloin when coming back from the Adobe/Zynga area.
So far the only difficulties I've had have been general country adjustment things (having spent nearly my whole adult life abroad), not SF things. To be honest, I'm amazed at how friendly and helpful everyone is!
This is a welcome and timely article since I'm about to pull up stakes in Georgia and move to SF in late July (cue Otis Redding). I am planning on couch-surfing with friends for the first few weeks while I find a good sublet for a few months. Hopefully after that I can get an apartment when I have a job and know the neighborhoods a little better. Are rents really accelerating upward so quickly that I'm better off finding an apartment as soon as possible?
I just looked at rents after posting this article and it looks like things are going up about $100/mo at least in the areas I had saved on PadMapper.
My advice would be to wait and find a place you'll like and just realize once you get a full lease (ie- 1 year or more) you'll be there a while because in a year, rent will definitely be way higher.
Totally right. The goal with the way I talked about the Tenderloin was more to forewarn people. If you know what you're getting yourself into and follow the street-wise tips you provide, it can be a great place to work and an easy walk to the Financial district or SoMA where many work.
You don't have to support YC's favorite spammers to land a short-term place. There are some month-to-month apartments in the city (e.g., Landmark, who I'm using now, basically wants a pulse and a credit card for the rent) and motels on the peninsula with weekly rates that are about the same as renting a studio but with utilities, parking, and cleaning included.
First, the bart shutting down at midnight doesn't mean there is no public transit. You can almost always take the bus.
Second: You can move near SF state, either in the city or in Daly City, and have an ok roommate/rent situation with managable transit options. Especially if you are willing to bike a bit.
But honestly if you're an engineer taking a job at a bay area tech company, you will be getting a relo package. If you move here on your own dime you're doing it wrong.
"Move mid-month so that you can look for places starting the first of the next month; I moved out on March 14th and moved into an apartment then starting April 1st."
I would have guessed all the really good apartments would be spoken for by March 5th. Odd.
While great, creditkarma.com only provides your score.
If you're looking for a complete credit report, there is no reason to not use https://www.annualcreditreport.com/. It is the official site set up by the three reporting agencies, as mandated by the Fair and Accurate Credit Transactions Act.
[+] [-] rwmj|14 years ago|reply
Red Hat's virtualization team is based all around the world, in offices but also many remotees. I'm one of them and I like nothing more than sitting in my cottage garden on a sunny day with a laptop and wifi connection. It's a great place to think.
[+] [-] ericabiz|14 years ago|reply
I left for Austin, TX and I truly love it here. I'm running a tech company here, too, and so far we haven't had any problems finding talent--even a Python developer!
I wrote an article about living outside of the Valley, and whether it's worth it for you, here: http://www.erica.biz/2012/austin-vs-silicon-valley/ Nearly 2,000 people have read it, and there is some interesting discussion in the comments.
[+] [-] citricsquid|14 years ago|reply
I tried to be the super flexible tenant recently. I needed to move 200 miles and I found the PERFECT place (http://imgur.com/a/XpksU) so I contacted the letting agency and asked for a viewing, they gave me a date a couple of days later so I booked my train tickets. Day of the viewing I get a call that it's cancelled, that sucks but we can re-arrange, so we re-arrange for a few days later and I swallow the loss on my train tickets (about $150) and order some more (this time paying a premium for refundable tickets) and again they cancel, so I re-arrange (and get a ticket refund, yay!), this time the viewing is for a day later so the tickets I needed were going to be $400 for ordering so late and so I decide whatever I'll go first class; it's only $100 extra and I can work from the train. Next day I go to the station, collect my tickets and board the train: finally I'm going to get to view my new home! My heart was set on the apartment... anyway 10 minutes into the journey I get a call, the viewing is cancelled and the apartment has been withdrawn from the market and unless I'm willing to buy it for $1m I can't live there... so I'm sitting in first class on a train using $500 tickets for no reason. Hurrah!
Anyway moral of the story is renting sucks and moving long distance also sucks, good article, next time I move a long distance I think I'll follow the advice and stay in the new place and look for apartments, much easier than travelling the entire distance frequently just to view.
[+] [-] steve8918|14 years ago|reply
Nob Hill, etc, has terrible, terrible parking. I have a good friend that lives there that I no longer visit unless it's in the middle of the day on Saturday, because of the terrible parking, you could literally spend 1 hr looking for parking after 6pm. If parking is not an issue (no car or get a scooter), then it's a viable option, but not having a car in the Bay Area ends up being severely limiting.
There are plenty of other cost-effective places on the west side of SF that can go for less than half the price of SOMA. For someone new moving into the area, my advice would be to get a cheap single place in Outer Sunset with hopefully a short-term lease, and then once you meet more people, you can band together with people that you know well and rent a bigger apartment somewhere else in the city. Signing a lease with someone that you don't know has tremendous long-tail risk, so I would take the hit in terms of moving a bit further away when you first move to SF, and do a lot of due diligence and get to know the city and your potential roommates better.
Another viable option is to not live in the city, especially if you don't work in the city. Places along the peninsula are much cheaper, and if you do work in FiDi or SOMA it's probably more cost effective to rent a place outside of SF and Caltrain it in.
My own strategy is:
I've never personally heard of the law that says that you have to rent to the first qualified applicant, and it sounds unenforceable, so I wouldn't count on it. How do you determine who is "qualified"?[+] [-] trimbo|14 years ago|reply
Exactly! Look at where Muni and BART end up and then look at places to rent in those locations. West Portal, Glen Park, Noe Valley, etc. There are a lot of cool choices with public transportation if you start looking.
[+] [-] ratsbane|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] earl|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] otterley|14 years ago|reply
Oakland is a big, heterogeneous city, with really nice districts that offer great dining, bars, and the usual city trappings.
[+] [-] gammarator|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jevanish|14 years ago|reply
I think the key is finding what you like. Some people like urban environments, others the suburbs, while some like the hybrid kind of areas like you find in Western SF.
In my opinion, to have a good work-life balance it's important you live somewhere you like.
[+] [-] benmccann|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jsprinkles|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jkincaid|14 years ago|reply
It's very convenient for work, but it doesn't feel like a neighborhood at all. Everything seems to close around 8pm and most of your friends probably aren't going to be hanging out around there. Yes, there are a handful of cafes around and you can find a few blocks that are busier, but in general it just feels like a generic chunk of tall buildings — I found it pretty gloomy.
[+] [-] aliston|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] crcsmnky|14 years ago|reply
Unfortunately you undermined the entire post with your "immigrants" comment. In fact you made yourself look like a huge bigot. That sucks because it was otherwise well written and useful.
It's sad that this is going largely unnoticed by the rest of the comments on this post.
[+] [-] dudeguy999|14 years ago|reply
There's lots of poor people and Spanish speaking people in the mission. This is good if you like Taquerias, bad if you dislike grime. If you don't fit in with homeless, hipster, or Latin culture, you will feel like an outsider. Some people may like it, some people may not. But if you don't like it, you are no longer allowed to say so!
I'm guessing that his offense is not embracing Latin culture. It is okay to dislike homeless culture, because everyone does, or hipster culture, since it is predominantly White. But you aren't allowed to dislike Latin culture, since it is non-European and therefore protected. Interesting.
[+] [-] white_devil|14 years ago|reply
Let's say I'm a Finnish person, which is true, and I move from Finland to SF.
Upon moving to SF, I'm aware that I'm an immigrant there, just like any others who moved in to the US from another country.
Now, if someone tells me that a specific area is full of "hipsters, homeless and immigrants", this will be my reaction:
"Oh? Apparently a lot of immigrants have ended up in an area with a considerable number of hipsters and homeless people. I guess it's a cheaper area then, but I wonder why the hipsters are comfortable with so many homeless people around."
I have no reason to doubt that's an accurate description of the way things are, and I have no reason to get offended by an accurate description of the way things are. Besides, I am an immigrant, and I know that there's nothing wrong with being one.
[+] [-] wyclif|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] wpietri|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] philp|14 years ago|reply
Pretty repulsive point of view IMHO.
EDIT: I am a recent immigrant to the United States
[+] [-] sentiental|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] _delirium|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] impendia|14 years ago|reply
I love the Mission. When I lived in SF at least half of my friends lived there. With the diverse culture, all the taquerias, the beautiful houses, Dolores Park, the nightlife, and the BART right there, it is very, very easy to find lots of people interested in living in the Mission.
[+] [-] pemulis|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jarek|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] njharman|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] azylman|14 years ago|reply
For instance, I can't get a reference from a past landlord or a list of past landlords - I'm just graduating college and have lived in on-campus housing my whole time.
I'm hoping having a very good credit score and a very good offer letter in hand will solve this issue, but I'm not sure.
Additionally, I can't move out mid-month and look for an apartment starting at the beginning of the next - my job starts mid-month and I've moving out at the beginning.
Any advice for how to deal with these situations? Thanks!
[+] [-] xiaoma|14 years ago|reply
I got here at about the beginning of the month, stayed 3 days in a hostel, 4 more days at a friend's place in Oakland and then signed a lease for a place in the heart of Chinatown. It's a fairly small room and the kitchen and showers are shared, but at $500/month all my acquaintances are saying I got a fairly good deal.
My trick was I got the landlord's number from a friend in Beijing the week before I left. Having friends in Oakland was just total luck. I'd met them years ago in Taiwan! All in all, Chinatown is pretty nice. It's safe, there's a ton of fresh produce to buy all over the place and things are cheap.
The two things which would be downsides for some are the hilliness and the Cantonese speaking community. I hated the hills when I was carrying my stuff across town, but now I generally appreciate the exercise while walking and the fun while on wheels. I do have a huge advantage being literate in Chinese characters, and Mandarin is more useful than English in a lot of areas, which mitigates some of the issues being surrounded by Cantonese.
I'm not working yet, but I've been going to a lot of Ruby and JS meet-ups, and it's generally a sub half-hour walk to any of their offices. All in all, I like it. I just have to avoid the Tenderloin when coming back from the Adobe/Zynga area.
So far the only difficulties I've had have been general country adjustment things (having spent nearly my whole adult life abroad), not SF things. To be honest, I'm amazed at how friendly and helpful everyone is!
[+] [-] jboggan|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jevanish|14 years ago|reply
My advice would be to wait and find a place you'll like and just realize once you get a full lease (ie- 1 year or more) you'll be there a while because in a year, rent will definitely be way higher.
[+] [-] unknown|14 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] jevanish|14 years ago|reply
Totally right. The goal with the way I talked about the Tenderloin was more to forewarn people. If you know what you're getting yourself into and follow the street-wise tips you provide, it can be a great place to work and an easy walk to the Financial district or SoMA where many work.
Thanks, Jason
[+] [-] prodigal_erik|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kevinsd|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lsiebert|14 years ago|reply
First, the bart shutting down at midnight doesn't mean there is no public transit. You can almost always take the bus.
Second: You can move near SF state, either in the city or in Daly City, and have an ok roommate/rent situation with managable transit options. Especially if you are willing to bike a bit.
[+] [-] unknown|14 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] unknown|14 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] wyclif|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] notatoad|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] base698|14 years ago|reply
http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=Page&pagen...
[+] [-] encoderer|14 years ago|reply
But honestly if you're an engineer taking a job at a bay area tech company, you will be getting a relo package. If you move here on your own dime you're doing it wrong.
[+] [-] jarek|14 years ago|reply
I would have guessed all the really good apartments would be spoken for by March 5th. Odd.
[+] [-] HaloZero|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Caerus|14 years ago|reply
If you're looking for a complete credit report, there is no reason to not use https://www.annualcreditreport.com/. It is the official site set up by the three reporting agencies, as mandated by the Fair and Accurate Credit Transactions Act.
[+] [-] otterley|14 years ago|reply