Ireland should be an international study about how a state destroyed itself by running a gigantic welfare state despite all of world's money pouring into it
Almost €300B national debt. Government is giving free houses, money to people who don't work. It's the only relatively wealthy European country with unlimited dole. And people make a lifestyle out of living on welfare forever.
This is despite huge corporation tax receipts and income tax receipts by largely foreign born workforce
One in five people are directly or indirectly employed by the government of a tiny country.. it's just a waste from bottom to top and all are complicit
How has the state destroyed itself? Most of the debt is from the bank bailouts during the 2008 financial crisis (debt quadrupled between 2007 and 2013)
> Government is giving free houses, money to people who don't work [...] and people make a lifestyle out of living on welfare forever
This is just the usual blah blah moaning about welfare states in general. What do you mean by "unlimited dole"?
Your framing is all wrong and certain points are incorrect too.
Clearly it's not a waste when at a GDP per capita level the country is in the top 5 in the world (and certainly the one with the largest population). Even if you want to strip out the tax aspect, the country has managed to improve living standards and now it ranks above average in living standards and earnings in Europe.
Debt means nothing when the population have the earning capacity to pay it off (people don't give loans they don't expect you can pay back).
This is clearly being invested well and in productive capital.
It is definitely not unlimited dole.
The social housing component ensures sufficient social mobility, so you actually can improve your own position in life.
The country also has the most progressive tax system in Europe i.e. people pay their fare share (relatively speaking to other countries).
I will make a point on an assumption you infer, and no you are wrong, trickle down economics does not work. And secondly, there is value in investing in your residents.
The only failings I see with the Irish model is they don’t go far enough in some areas.
I’d like to see the healthcare system expanded for example.
Per captia they are extremely wealthy. Have free education including third level. No student debt. Are extremely educated. Very low crime (including a tiny murder rate). Very low homelessness (although pressure has increased on the system in the last few years because of refugees from Ukraine and asylum seekers - but I’m happy they are helping people and I think most Irish people are too).
They frequently rank highest on happiness measures and the fact that they worry about how young people feel about their future and are willing to make policy changes to accommodate them is a sign of strength not weakness.
Also caring for the less fortunate is a huge positive not a negative.
I mean let’s be honest adults here - a 300B national debt is literally nothing. Not even worth discussing in a post or even acting like it’s a problem. Ireland ran a 4 billion euro deficit last year; again this is meaningless. You can dislike these policies you mentioned(on whatever basis…) but let’s not act like Ireland is burning here or something
Well, 223bn, but what's 77bn between friends? About 40% GDP. This puts it fairly low as far as developed countries go (Germany's 66%, UK 97%, US 130%, Japan 264%).
> Governing is giving free houses
I mean, not notably.
> money to people who don't work
Ireland has functional full employment (about 4% unemployment rate). Social welfare isn't particularly lavish by Western European standards.
> One in five people are directly or indirectly employed by the government of a tiny country.
That's reasonably low by western European standards.
Ireland has lots of problems, but _not spending enough money_ isn't one of them. We're not a particularly high-tax country by Western European standards, and we're running a surplus. If anything we should probably be spending more, to sort out the housing crisis if nothing else.
You don't have to move very far to see a meaningful difference either. The difference in weather between the north of Ireland and the south of England is staggering. The proper summers there largely make up for the miserable winters. No so in Ireland sadly. It sounds mad but the wonderful English weather is one of the main things that would stop me moving back to Ireland.
I would love to live in that climate but that's not where the high-paying tech jobs and somewhat-affordable housing are. Instead I have to be in a climate where it's a blistering 105F for 3 straight months (arguably equally as depressing).
I’m from Boston visiting Ireland for the first time. We’re spending our time in the west, from the Dingle peninsula up to Sligo. Right now we’re in Connemara.
That’s a neat coincidence, but it doesn’t give me any insight on this problem. What I can say from the article is that it sounds just like articles in the US decrying Gen Z’s “failure to launch”.
It’s a real problem, but it doesn’t seem unique to Ireland. I guess people in UK and continental Europe all struggle with the same problems.
People do it anyway, but you can't practically make those kinds of comparisons and unearth much of value.
The characterization of mental wellbeing is cultural, not universal, and the methodology of collecting assessments is also sensitive to culture.
But it doesn't really matter because it wouldn't tell you much besides "ah, only Ireland has this problem I guess" or "whelp, this has been rising eveywhere" -- neither of which are especially practical conclusions when it comes to actually doing something about it.
Ireland is in a very bad spot right now. They are in a deep recession, over a year of gdp contraction. Later this month we find out last quarter's gdp reduction and if it's -0.6% or worse, Ireland moves from recession to depression. Which I will be shocked to see if they achieve anything better.
Shrinking GDP, yes, likely to move from technical to actual recession, sure, but "in a deep recession" is factually incorrect [1]:
"Ireland officially fell into recession last year as multinational exports slumped in the face of weaker global demand but the domestic economy still managed to grow, aided by stronger-than-expected consumer spending. Central Statistics Office (CSO) figures published on Friday show the economy as a whole shrank by 3.2 per cent in GDP (gross domestic product) terms in 2023. The CSO noted that the more globalised sectors of the economy, including the multinational-dominated “Industry” sector, contracted for the first time since 2013. This was “driven largely by a fall of 4.8 per cent in exports,” the agency said. The figures show the economy was effectively in a technical recession for the entirety of 2023 with GDP contracting in all four quarters. The domestic economy as measured by modified domestic demand (MDD), a more reliable barometer of domestic activity, grew by 0.5 per cent on the back of a 3.1 per cent increase in consumer spending. Consumer spending was underpinned by strong employment growth with figures published last week showing a record 2.71 million people are now employed in the economy. Incomes also rose in real terms by 3.3 per cent, the CSO said. Worryingly, however, MDD contracted by 0.4 per cent in the final quarter of last year on the back of a fall-off in private-sector investment. Another quarterly contraction would turn Ireland’s technical recession into a real one."
GDP when it comes to Ireland is not the best measure, yes it was down in 2023 due to lower returns from pharmaceutical and contract manufacturing multinationals.
Modified Domestic Demand, a better measure of the internal economy was up 0.5%, much better but will still be felt relative to the crazy highs Ireland reached the past few years.
The new OECD tax agreement means GDP and tax will remain under pressure (tax surplus forecasts are being revised downwards).
Having left Ireland over two years ago I can say that the quality of life is simply awful there compared to many other European locations.
I love my country and I was paid exceptionally but at every turn there is an extra overhead or increase in price accomodation is simply disgusting in Dublin, the weather is laughed about being a factor but when you're stuck indoors 80% of the year it has a big effect on your mental health over time.
Add to that the real growing problem of petty and violent crime in the city. While not out of control right now, it's unmanageable by the current Garda police force.
I hope it can figure things out, but as I see, Facebook conspiracy theorists and cookoos are starting to have political positions and it doesn't look like it will end well.
> Add to that the real growing problem of petty and violent crime in the city.
No kidding, I couldn't get my head around the recentish riots at all - child killed; immigrant comes to others' aid; everyone starts rioting; supposedly anti-immigrant, but involves mainly attacking police and burning public infrastructure...
Not that I'd support that kind of political action anyway, but at least make some kind of sense, do correctly targeted rioting?
Do these publications have a rule that every article needs a photo, even if it’s irrelevant? I don’t actually want to see a stock (or AI) photo that adds nothing to the journalism.
negamax|1 year ago
Almost €300B national debt. Government is giving free houses, money to people who don't work. It's the only relatively wealthy European country with unlimited dole. And people make a lifestyle out of living on welfare forever.
This is despite huge corporation tax receipts and income tax receipts by largely foreign born workforce
One in five people are directly or indirectly employed by the government of a tiny country.. it's just a waste from bottom to top and all are complicit
circlefavshape|1 year ago
> Government is giving free houses, money to people who don't work [...] and people make a lifestyle out of living on welfare forever
This is just the usual blah blah moaning about welfare states in general. What do you mean by "unlimited dole"?
KoolKat23|1 year ago
Clearly it's not a waste when at a GDP per capita level the country is in the top 5 in the world (and certainly the one with the largest population). Even if you want to strip out the tax aspect, the country has managed to improve living standards and now it ranks above average in living standards and earnings in Europe.
Debt means nothing when the population have the earning capacity to pay it off (people don't give loans they don't expect you can pay back). This is clearly being invested well and in productive capital.
It is definitely not unlimited dole. The social housing component ensures sufficient social mobility, so you actually can improve your own position in life. The country also has the most progressive tax system in Europe i.e. people pay their fare share (relatively speaking to other countries).
I will make a point on an assumption you infer, and no you are wrong, trickle down economics does not work. And secondly, there is value in investing in your residents.
superb_dev|1 year ago
romafirst3|1 year ago
The only failings I see with the Irish model is they don’t go far enough in some areas.
I’d like to see the healthcare system expanded for example.
Per captia they are extremely wealthy. Have free education including third level. No student debt. Are extremely educated. Very low crime (including a tiny murder rate). Very low homelessness (although pressure has increased on the system in the last few years because of refugees from Ukraine and asylum seekers - but I’m happy they are helping people and I think most Irish people are too).
They frequently rank highest on happiness measures and the fact that they worry about how young people feel about their future and are willing to make policy changes to accommodate them is a sign of strength not weakness.
Also caring for the less fortunate is a huge positive not a negative.
piva00|1 year ago
WhereIsTheTruth|1 year ago
However, it's a tax heaven within Europe, therefore companies are not incentivized to create jobs, that's the problem
When you have nothing to do and nothing in your life to aspire to, you become sad
unknown|1 year ago
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turndown|1 year ago
rsynnott|1 year ago
Well, 223bn, but what's 77bn between friends? About 40% GDP. This puts it fairly low as far as developed countries go (Germany's 66%, UK 97%, US 130%, Japan 264%).
> Governing is giving free houses
I mean, not notably.
> money to people who don't work
Ireland has functional full employment (about 4% unemployment rate). Social welfare isn't particularly lavish by Western European standards.
> One in five people are directly or indirectly employed by the government of a tiny country.
That's reasonably low by western European standards.
Ireland has lots of problems, but _not spending enough money_ isn't one of them. We're not a particularly high-tax country by Western European standards, and we're running a surplus. If anything we should probably be spending more, to sort out the housing crisis if nothing else.
padjo|1 year ago
ergonomicist|1 year ago
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goalonetwo|1 year ago
dave84|1 year ago
basisword|1 year ago
JasserInicide|1 year ago
loughnane|1 year ago
loughnane|1 year ago
That’s a neat coincidence, but it doesn’t give me any insight on this problem. What I can say from the article is that it sounds just like articles in the US decrying Gen Z’s “failure to launch”.
It’s a real problem, but it doesn’t seem unique to Ireland. I guess people in UK and continental Europe all struggle with the same problems.
anotherhue|1 year ago
stcredzero|1 year ago
mrtksn|1 year ago
swatcoder|1 year ago
The characterization of mental wellbeing is cultural, not universal, and the methodology of collecting assessments is also sensitive to culture.
But it doesn't really matter because it wouldn't tell you much besides "ah, only Ireland has this problem I guess" or "whelp, this has been rising eveywhere" -- neither of which are especially practical conclusions when it comes to actually doing something about it.
incomingpain|1 year ago
Ireland's housing crisis: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/15/world/europe/ireland-hous...
Overall Ireland is in a bad spot and young folks with low work experience are the ones who will hurt the most.
paulette449|1 year ago
"Ireland officially fell into recession last year as multinational exports slumped in the face of weaker global demand but the domestic economy still managed to grow, aided by stronger-than-expected consumer spending. Central Statistics Office (CSO) figures published on Friday show the economy as a whole shrank by 3.2 per cent in GDP (gross domestic product) terms in 2023. The CSO noted that the more globalised sectors of the economy, including the multinational-dominated “Industry” sector, contracted for the first time since 2013. This was “driven largely by a fall of 4.8 per cent in exports,” the agency said. The figures show the economy was effectively in a technical recession for the entirety of 2023 with GDP contracting in all four quarters. The domestic economy as measured by modified domestic demand (MDD), a more reliable barometer of domestic activity, grew by 0.5 per cent on the back of a 3.1 per cent increase in consumer spending. Consumer spending was underpinned by strong employment growth with figures published last week showing a record 2.71 million people are now employed in the economy. Incomes also rose in real terms by 3.3 per cent, the CSO said. Worryingly, however, MDD contracted by 0.4 per cent in the final quarter of last year on the back of a fall-off in private-sector investment. Another quarterly contraction would turn Ireland’s technical recession into a real one."
[1] - https://www.irishtimes.com/business/2024/03/01/recession-con...
KoolKat23|1 year ago
Modified Domestic Demand, a better measure of the internal economy was up 0.5%, much better but will still be felt relative to the crazy highs Ireland reached the past few years.
The new OECD tax agreement means GDP and tax will remain under pressure (tax surplus forecasts are being revised downwards).
angrais|1 year ago
bilekas|1 year ago
I love my country and I was paid exceptionally but at every turn there is an extra overhead or increase in price accomodation is simply disgusting in Dublin, the weather is laughed about being a factor but when you're stuck indoors 80% of the year it has a big effect on your mental health over time.
Add to that the real growing problem of petty and violent crime in the city. While not out of control right now, it's unmanageable by the current Garda police force.
I hope it can figure things out, but as I see, Facebook conspiracy theorists and cookoos are starting to have political positions and it doesn't look like it will end well.
OJFord|1 year ago
No kidding, I couldn't get my head around the recentish riots at all - child killed; immigrant comes to others' aid; everyone starts rioting; supposedly anti-immigrant, but involves mainly attacking police and burning public infrastructure...
Not that I'd support that kind of political action anyway, but at least make some kind of sense, do correctly targeted rioting?
sirmike_|1 year ago
aerodog|1 year ago
amluto|1 year ago
unknown|1 year ago
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test6554|1 year ago
unknown|1 year ago
[deleted]
jarrell_mark|1 year ago
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