> My personal experiences highlight the magnitude of the problem. Upon graduation from medical school in 2013, I owed approximately $180,000 in student debt — what might seem an outrageously high number that is actually about $10,000 less than the average for today’s medical school graduates. I scrounged and saved during residency, living in a tiny Chinatown apartment, riding my bicycle to work every day, and sneaking expired patient sandwiches for lunch so that I could make my monthly $700 debt payment. Yet upon completing residency, the amount I owed had, to my disbelief, increased to $188,000 — all my efforts had not been enough to cover even the interest accumulating on my loans.
> I am far from alone. A mentor in residency, several years my senior and making over $200,000 per year, once revealed that she had moved back in with her mother just to get a handle on her student loans. Another colleague had a marriage proposal rejected because of his mortgage-size debt.
A $180,000 at 7% interest would require monthly payments of ~$1,200 to pay down after 30 years. Even at 3% it'd still be ~$750.
I'm really skeptical of these types of articles because they don't tell the complete story about their finances and how they're spending money. In 2013 the median rent in Chinatown was ~$600, and the average salary for a resident was $55,000. After taxes that's roughly $3k/month.
Well, where "liberal art degree" often means "high-skilled labor". People struggling to pay off college debt includes:
- teachers and childcare workers
- special education and/or disability workers
- librarians
- social workers, therapists, mental health workers
- cnas, medical billing, and other heathcare admin
- and many more not listed above
People often seem to assume "liberal arts" translates to a fake profession, like "underwater basketweaving" or "economist" or something "silly". And while that's occasionally true, most folks with a Liberal Arts degree are hard-working career-oriented people, who society just pays terribly, arbitrarily, because they can. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_arts_education#Modern_...
Many places are facing a teacher shortage too. I think one would assume in a rational economy, since the labor is in short supply, they would pay more for it. However, the pay gap between teachers and the average worker is widening...
This is 100% true. I have a chemistry degree that's technically from a liberal arts college and it was super confusing to my immigrant parents how that could happen. Now with the advent of the term "STEM" it's even more confusing because a huge portion of Science degrees are actually in liberal arts programs, not technically "Science" programs.
Teachers who are struggling to pay off college debt are mostly those who chose to attend private colleges without scholarships, or chose to work in high-cost areas after graduation. In most states it's possible to get a bachelor's degree plus teaching credential for under $40K total tuition. And starting salaries for teachers are at or above the average for college graduates in most places — especially for special education teachers who are in the highest demand. I totally support higher pay for teachers to attract more qualified candidates to the field, but when teachers struggle to pay off college debts that's usually the result of making some bad decisions or lack of financial discipline.
As for a CNAS or medical biller, those jobs don't even require a bachelor's degree. They can get trained more cheaply in community college.
Low pay in many of those fields you listed is only arbitrary in the sense that much of the funding ultimately comes from governments. Voters are already struggling themselves and seldom vote for tax increases.
STEM kids absolutely are struggling to pay off these loans. They have it easier, but college exploitation has gotten so bad that every degree program has some students graduating with lifelong debt.
What you said used to be true, it's no longer true.
Hold up, just so we're aware: STEM covers not only tech but also sciences.
Let me say here I know three chemist undergrads that have been in the industry for 5-8y+: none are happy or over six figures.
I am an ex-biochemist and trust me, PhDs in academia are not making six figures.
There is a divide there between tech and science for sure. Of the maybe 25 or so younger people I worked with in the lab, the ones that did very well moved to tech. The ones that did ok were either from other countries, or their parents paid their way. Very few US people from the lab that stayed in science that had loans, paid off their loan. I can think of one.
Lab work is super underpaid, and you need every degree in order to even get your foot in the door.
The thing that endlessly amuses me is that there are oodles of ways to get a libarts degree without incurring student debt. Heck, you can get a passable STEM degree without incurring student debt. Or at least not paying more for a degree than you'd pay for a decently-specced new car right off the lot.
For reference, I have a degree in history that I paid (ending in 2014) 30k in 2024 dollars for over the course of six years. Even with current price, that same degree at the same institution would be ~60k over the course of four years. Inflationary and gouging - sure, but still rather affordable.
The current system that perpetuates "college for everyone" along with a governmental debt guarantee to the universities leads to incessant price jacking. No, Boston University is emphatically not worth 63 thousand dollars a year. No state school is worth 30-40k/year.
> there are oodles of ways to get a libarts degree without incurring student debt.
For folks who don't know, would you be willing to elaborate? Is it a real degree (fully accredited, so you can actually use it?).
Even using residency status at a community college for your first two years, and then transfering in to a public state university, still puts the cheapest bachlors degree around here at close to $40k (not including room and board). (And for maybe half of the careers, you can't do this, and it costs even more)
I'd happily spend $30-40K/yr for UC-Berkeley, UT-Austin, or UNC if that's where my kid got in and wanted to go.
A lot of this hinges on "worth".
Are you trying to make some kind of purely financial investment and show in an Excel model how it improves the overall financial outcome?
Or are you trying to equip your offspring to maximize their enjoyment in life? I got a lot of education at university that will never show up in a cell in a spreadsheet and I'm forever grateful for that, even though that it that subset had a negative RoI.
It's less about liberal arts, and more about those that graduate or not. It's more about those that fall into the "some collage" category. Most of the costs of a full degree, but none of the benefits.
ceejayoz|1 year ago
> My personal experiences highlight the magnitude of the problem. Upon graduation from medical school in 2013, I owed approximately $180,000 in student debt — what might seem an outrageously high number that is actually about $10,000 less than the average for today’s medical school graduates. I scrounged and saved during residency, living in a tiny Chinatown apartment, riding my bicycle to work every day, and sneaking expired patient sandwiches for lunch so that I could make my monthly $700 debt payment. Yet upon completing residency, the amount I owed had, to my disbelief, increased to $188,000 — all my efforts had not been enough to cover even the interest accumulating on my loans.
> I am far from alone. A mentor in residency, several years my senior and making over $200,000 per year, once revealed that she had moved back in with her mother just to get a handle on her student loans. Another colleague had a marriage proposal rejected because of his mortgage-size debt.
kcmastrpc|1 year ago
I'm really skeptical of these types of articles because they don't tell the complete story about their finances and how they're spending money. In 2013 the median rent in Chinatown was ~$600, and the average salary for a resident was $55,000. After taxes that's roughly $3k/month.
4death4|1 year ago
Debt itself isn’t bad if it’s taken on as an investment.
unknown|1 year ago
[deleted]
brodouevencode|1 year ago
EDIT: Do you have data that's not anecdotal and shows that residents/doctors are struggling to pay off that debt?
maxsilver|1 year ago
- teachers and childcare workers
- special education and/or disability workers
- librarians
- social workers, therapists, mental health workers
- cnas, medical billing, and other heathcare admin
- and many more not listed above
People often seem to assume "liberal arts" translates to a fake profession, like "underwater basketweaving" or "economist" or something "silly". And while that's occasionally true, most folks with a Liberal Arts degree are hard-working career-oriented people, who society just pays terribly, arbitrarily, because they can. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_arts_education#Modern_...
dfxm12|1 year ago
https://www.usatoday.com/story/graphics/2024/03/19/teacher-s...
johnkpaul|1 year ago
nradov|1 year ago
As for a CNAS or medical biller, those jobs don't even require a bachelor's degree. They can get trained more cheaply in community college.
Low pay in many of those fields you listed is only arbitrary in the sense that much of the funding ultimately comes from governments. Voters are already struggling themselves and seldom vote for tax increases.
redserk|1 year ago
Many careers requiring hard science degrees have dreadful pay.
brodouevencode|1 year ago
yareal|1 year ago
What you said used to be true, it's no longer true.
anarticle|1 year ago
Let me say here I know three chemist undergrads that have been in the industry for 5-8y+: none are happy or over six figures.
I am an ex-biochemist and trust me, PhDs in academia are not making six figures.
There is a divide there between tech and science for sure. Of the maybe 25 or so younger people I worked with in the lab, the ones that did very well moved to tech. The ones that did ok were either from other countries, or their parents paid their way. Very few US people from the lab that stayed in science that had loans, paid off their loan. I can think of one.
Lab work is super underpaid, and you need every degree in order to even get your foot in the door.
unknown|1 year ago
[deleted]
slackfan|1 year ago
For reference, I have a degree in history that I paid (ending in 2014) 30k in 2024 dollars for over the course of six years. Even with current price, that same degree at the same institution would be ~60k over the course of four years. Inflationary and gouging - sure, but still rather affordable.
The current system that perpetuates "college for everyone" along with a governmental debt guarantee to the universities leads to incessant price jacking. No, Boston University is emphatically not worth 63 thousand dollars a year. No state school is worth 30-40k/year.
maxsilver|1 year ago
For folks who don't know, would you be willing to elaborate? Is it a real degree (fully accredited, so you can actually use it?).
Even using residency status at a community college for your first two years, and then transfering in to a public state university, still puts the cheapest bachlors degree around here at close to $40k (not including room and board). (And for maybe half of the careers, you can't do this, and it costs even more)
sokoloff|1 year ago
A lot of this hinges on "worth".
Are you trying to make some kind of purely financial investment and show in an Excel model how it improves the overall financial outcome?
Or are you trying to equip your offspring to maximize their enjoyment in life? I got a lot of education at university that will never show up in a cell in a spreadsheet and I'm forever grateful for that, even though that it that subset had a negative RoI.
Der_Einzige|1 year ago
adra|1 year ago