It’s amazing that 54% of adults in the United States have a literacy below 6th grade level, but it is expected for the same population to have the financial literacy to file their taxes accurately. Going further, the IRS already knows the details of most people’s taxes before they file, yet everyone is expected to complete what amounts to a complex task for many people. I cannot fathom why it is still done this way.
I guess it was originally done this way because in the past people actually had some semblance of privacy and the government didn't actually know a great deal about people's income.
Eventually, privacy was eroded away year after year to the point where the government now knows an extreme amount about each citizen.
I guess I'd refrain the question - instead of asking why do we need to do taxes when the government knows everything about us that they could do it for us, should we really have that little privacy? Maybe instead of changing the way we file taxes, we change the way the government is intimately entangled with our lives?
Of course, those ideas, liberty and privacy, small government, etc., isn't really fashionable with the latest generations and most people would gladly give up their freedom and privacy to save having to fill out some paperwork.
It’s amazing how much of an idiot I felt like when we hired a babysitter for two days a week for about a year and then it came time to do things properly regarding taxes and her wages.
I understand why it’s important to do it properly (for the employee’s benefit) but when I tried to look into what we had to do, as technically her employer, and it was nearly impossible for me to figure out what we had to do and then how to even do it (federal and state). I understand why many people just want to pay cash under the table. It really made me feel like a complete moron.
If we ever do it again we’ll have to just hire a payroll service and factor that cost into what wages we can offer, or structure it so that total payments remain under the threshold required for filing.
The anti tax republicans believe that if Americans had an easier time filling their taxes then they would have less objections to the same or higher level of taxation.
> It’s amazing that 54% of adults in the United States have a literacy below 6th grade level,
AFAICT this is a mis-interpretation. IIUC the actual study says "54% of adults in the United States have a literacy IN ENGLISH below 6th grade level". They might be highly literate in some other language but that wasn't tested.
The real issue is that taxes are unreasonably and unnecessarily complicated to allow politicians to pander to specific voting blocks (both rich and poor) at the expense of the middle class.
There is no reason every legitimate employer can't send tax information to the IRS and the self employed can't simply self-report our taxable incomes. No more deductions, for anything, just simple graduated tax brackets. Easy for the IRS to calculate quickly and either send a bill or a refund by April. They would need a fraction of the staff they currently employ and we could apply the savings to the national debt.
The fact of the matter is the tax code is stupidly complex for no good reason. It's used to promote policy and benefits the wealthy (Warren Buffett has noted this numerous times). That's it. If the focus was on collecting taxes it would be stupidly simple.
At this point I think of it as a jobs program. Every year we calculate our taxes by reading the manuals and instructions, fill out our tax return and submit it. I like to think that my literacy is above 6th grade level but every year it gets corrected by the IRS, and sometimes more than once.
If the IRS takes responsibility for filing everyone’s tax forms, then it could potentially shift liability to them if they were to make a mistake. Whereas if people are filing their own forms, the blame can be put on the taxpayer for any errors.
I've filed my taxes myself for several years. A couple of times the IRS sent me letters after the fact saying I messed something up. Then it's another several hours combing through all their paperwork trying to correct whatever they said I did wrong. One time they directed me to "explain why you won't make this mistake again in the future." Which is a particularly asinine thing to ask. "Well, Mr. Tax Man Sir, I probably won't make that particular mistake again because now I know not to make that particular mistake again."
This year things got complicated enough that after spending an entire Saturday staring at forms, instructions, and spreadsheets trying to figure out what I was supposed to do, I finally gave up and hired a CPA that specializes in tax returns do my 1040.
The whole thing ended up being 27 pages long. I guess I needed forms 1040-ES, 2210, 8949, 8995-A, 8960; Schedules 2, B, D, and 8812; and several worksheets. I consider myself fairly capable and experienced in filing my own taxes having done it 20-something times, but I don't think I would have ever figured out that I'd need all those forms and schedules this time around.
It's particularly frustrating that they are somehow able to tell me that it's wrong after the fact and harass me to correct it. If they can do that, why not just tell me what they think it's supposed to be in the first place, and then give me the option of correcting what they send me if I spot something that doesn't make sense to me?
that’s a common talking point, but that is not exactly true. they don’t know how many dependents you have, if you are eligible for certain tax credits, whether you use your home as a work location, etc., etc.
> It’s amazing that 54% of adults in the United States have a literacy below 6th grade level
I wonder if this issue is due to the overall spread of academic abilities, or if it's because progressive education systems focus more on caring for students' feelings rather than setting higher standards
Like many things in America, the government is lobbied to create an unnecessary problem by private companies who aim to profit off of solving that problem.
TurboTax. It’s really that simple. They pay a very small amount in bribes (er lobbying), and they ruin what could be a very good thing for millions of Americans.
Following tax forms is so braindead simple, I honestly can't see how anyone can be that incapable without being mentally deficient enough to be under conservatorship. It's literally step by step "Add this" or "subtract that". If you have a calculator and a 3rd grade level understanding of English, I can't see how you'd have a problem.
>54% of adults in the United States have a literacy below 6th grade level
I don't care how many times this is repeated it's utterly preposterous. Imagine being so naive or less charitably to possess the motivated reasoning to actually believe this shit.
Yes you can. It’s capitalism. The owners of the current system lobby and advertise and “manufacture consent” in keeping the current system because it is wildly profitable.
What's sad to me is the level of apprehension people have towards doing taxes. It's not that hard! The first few years of my adult life I did it by hand, using the paper forms. It is very easy to do if you can follow basic instructions, yet people act as if it's super difficult and requires an expert.
Listening to Congress “debate” this made me unreasonably upset. If you as a sitting politician have received monetary benefits from a tax filing service you should not be allowed to speak.
I did my Canadian taxes for me and my spouse on a free filing site last night, in less than two hours, for $0. Everything was prefilled; practically the only thing I had to fix was to convert an imported investment statement from USD to CAD, and double check that everything was accurate.
I welcome the Americans to the delightful convenience of hassle-free taxes!
That's still a crazy demand on the time of someone paying for everything. My bank, my employer and my brokerage all report on me, the IRS should be able to just mail a check or a bill most of the time.
Here in Norway I just have to look it over on our IRS' own site (so no selling of private data to god knows how many unknown third parties), add a couple of items they don't get automatically, like a private loan, and click save. Less than 10 minutes.
For years the big hassle was that housing loans only got put on one of us, but since we're both paying on the loan, the loan and deductions should be split as well. So that had to be manually calculated and corrected on each of our declarations.
However last year they fixed that. Now they get the split from the property ownership registry and distribute the loan and deductions according to that. For most people they pay similar to their ownership, typically 50/50, so no need to change that anymore.
Our IRS' has a quite good internal development team[1], rather than relying on contractors for everything. Their digital solutions has been several steps ahead most other agencies.
So this free site was not run by the government of Canada. Are you concerned that you just gave all of your personal and financial data to a third party site? If you’re not paying anything they’re likely data mining your data and selling it. And we haven’t even talked about the security implications of trusting your data to these companies.
It can be even better - in the UK unless you earn over a large amount, or know for a fact you have some special circumstances, you never have to do a thing.
I didn't qualify to use the site, but it's definitely a step in the right direction. Everyone agrees that doing taxes should be free and easy, like nearly every other country...
did you ever try to use any USA federal service? (veteran benefits, free tax filing, ssn, etc). you're required an id.me account.
what's that? well some anonymous group saw login.gov, realized the value of the data, and lobbied that it should be open to free capital markets to explore, not the government!
so now if you want to even talk to the irs or veteran service, you need to go to that privately owned id.me site, do a video call, scan all the documents they ask for (even ones without visible anti counterfeit mechanics like your typewritter filled ssn card).
and the best part? right after you create your account, you land on a coupon clipping page that is a facsimile of the garbage pamphlet the usps is forced to shove daily in yout physical mailbox! and among the links on that page are links to Whitepapers about how advertisers can benefit from buying user data from them because it includes gov affiliation like vetetan, taxpayer, etc and bank information!
my point being, after you've already filtered anyone with a brain and means to avoid that (i paid intuit even qualifying for free filling, and a lawyer to deal with veteran stuff in person), of course you will get high marks on a survey.
i bet Stalin also had good approval after the purge
There are a lot of things that remind me that the government doesn't work for the people, and tax time is just another one of those times.
Getting taxes automated is a solved problem. There is only one reason this status quo persisted for so many years. it's just to bad that we must bend the knee before the real americans, Intuit's lobbyists.
I'm glad the IRS is showing signs of wriggling free of such influence, but it is unfortunately to late a fix for yet another unforgiveable position for me.
The US government has shown me its priorities again and again throughout my life, and it's not the people. There is no rehabilitating this image in my eyes.
Hopefully I can be proven wrong, and the next generation can grow up far less cynical of our elected representatives.
Most Americans don’t do their own taxes. They go to H&R Block or Jackson Hewitt, and if your family makes under $60k you are almost certainly paying no income taxes and are receiving a refund via the EITC, getting a check back. So people think tax preparers are voodoo priests that do their incantations to get free money because the average person can’t understand the jargon, can’t handle forms, and the whole endeavor is purposefully opaque.
I support free file for most people. I also support radically simplifying the tax code, which would make the Byzantines blush.
Just a minor comment, but: why does EITC exist? Just a hidden welfare payment?
That out if the way, I agree with the earlier comment: why does the government automatically know all your financial details? Where is the privacy? Where is the requirement for a warrant, to access your private information?
> if your family makes under $60k you are almost certainly paying no income taxes
How is this possible? Where I live, you can expect to pay around 30% of your income as tax almost regardless of how much money you actually make (as long as it's above something like $600 a year).
Not available in my state but am looking forward to if/when it becomes available. I do my own taxes with the free fillable forms site. I would rather use this direct file service if possible. State of NJ has a free online site but NY does not for non-residents so I end up mailing in a return for them. It’s silly really.
One thing that the article didn't mention, which I think needs to be considered, is the savings if we can get rid of paper tax forms. Right now, the IRS has to have the staff to be able to process those. How much will they save there, and does it offset the ongoing costs of running the website?
"Experts say a nationwide rollout could someday disrupt the multibillion-dollar tax preparation industry; Americans spend more than $200 a year, on average, to file a return using software or a tax preparer."
This year it took me five minutes and cost whatever I pay for my bank account, which I used for identification. $30 maybe? I could have waited a bit for papers through the mail and approved with a SMS.
I used this for taxes this year. It spotted three errors, fairly complex errors actually, and spit it back for me to fix. After the third submission, it was error free and my return was accepted. I found it pretty amazing that it caught all of that and so, so, so, happy I gave no money to the tax industrial complex for a change. The IRS should definitely continue this as a thing.
I couldn't say stupid but I could say there's a whiff of bad-faith arguments in the air...
But of course the direct answer is that throwing the full faith and credit of the US (that is, in showing earnest and steady effort to pay off its debts, something that worldwide investors count on) straight out the window would immediately tank the value of the dollar, which wouldn't be good for anyone paid in dollars.
If the implication is that we should not bother to run our finances honestly and responsibly because of some idea that the checks written by lawmakers aren't for things we all agree on, then it seems like a bit of a non sequitur. The time to decide on that is when we decide who writes those checks, but we have every incentive to commit and honor our debts after that.
> The Biden administration announced Friday that its first-of-its-kind free tax filing website...
In the rest of the world in many places we have been filling taxes directly online for many years. Sorry Americans, you did not invent free electronic tax filing. You are at least twenty years late to the party.
We've had electronic filing for probably as long as any country, but in the US, no corporation gets left behind so financial services companies get to rip us off when we electronically file.
wait until turbo tax comes in hot with their lobbying efforts - didn't they manage to prevent or diminish a free tax filing service already a few years ago?
As I understand it, this system exists largely because ProPublica shined a light on how corrupt the TurboTax deals were and the IRS couldn't pretend they thought everything was okay anymore. I'm hopeful that the IRS knows that we're on to it and doesn't get cozy with them again.
I like TurboTax. It just works, year after year. The fee is worth the peace of mind that I wouldn’t have by letting a government program lose my submission accidentally.
tmountain|1 year ago
thegrim33|1 year ago
Eventually, privacy was eroded away year after year to the point where the government now knows an extreme amount about each citizen.
I guess I'd refrain the question - instead of asking why do we need to do taxes when the government knows everything about us that they could do it for us, should we really have that little privacy? Maybe instead of changing the way we file taxes, we change the way the government is intimately entangled with our lives?
Of course, those ideas, liberty and privacy, small government, etc., isn't really fashionable with the latest generations and most people would gladly give up their freedom and privacy to save having to fill out some paperwork.
nkrisc|1 year ago
I understand why it’s important to do it properly (for the employee’s benefit) but when I tried to look into what we had to do, as technically her employer, and it was nearly impossible for me to figure out what we had to do and then how to even do it (federal and state). I understand why many people just want to pay cash under the table. It really made me feel like a complete moron.
If we ever do it again we’ll have to just hire a payroll service and factor that cost into what wages we can offer, or structure it so that total payments remain under the threshold required for filing.
bobthepanda|1 year ago
https://www.npr.org/2013/03/26/175332655/what-would-the-u-s-...
nox101|1 year ago
AFAICT this is a mis-interpretation. IIUC the actual study says "54% of adults in the United States have a literacy IN ENGLISH below 6th grade level". They might be highly literate in some other language but that wasn't tested.
_mlbt|1 year ago
There is no reason every legitimate employer can't send tax information to the IRS and the self employed can't simply self-report our taxable incomes. No more deductions, for anything, just simple graduated tax brackets. Easy for the IRS to calculate quickly and either send a bill or a refund by April. They would need a fraction of the staff they currently employ and we could apply the savings to the national debt.
binkHN|1 year ago
itronitron|1 year ago
worik|1 year ago
Stop there! Really? "6th grade" is age eleven?
That is mind blowing!
deadbabe|1 year ago
steelframe|1 year ago
This year things got complicated enough that after spending an entire Saturday staring at forms, instructions, and spreadsheets trying to figure out what I was supposed to do, I finally gave up and hired a CPA that specializes in tax returns do my 1040.
The whole thing ended up being 27 pages long. I guess I needed forms 1040-ES, 2210, 8949, 8995-A, 8960; Schedules 2, B, D, and 8812; and several worksheets. I consider myself fairly capable and experienced in filing my own taxes having done it 20-something times, but I don't think I would have ever figured out that I'd need all those forms and schedules this time around.
It's particularly frustrating that they are somehow able to tell me that it's wrong after the fact and harass me to correct it. If they can do that, why not just tell me what they think it's supposed to be in the first place, and then give me the option of correcting what they send me if I spot something that doesn't make sense to me?
pompino|1 year ago
wredue|1 year ago
*intuit has left the chat
hintymad|1 year ago
I wonder if this issue is due to the overall spread of academic abilities, or if it's because progressive education systems focus more on caring for students' feelings rather than setting higher standards
H12|1 year ago
Like many things in America, the government is lobbied to create an unnecessary problem by private companies who aim to profit off of solving that problem.
throwaway5959|1 year ago
skybrian|1 year ago
anon291|1 year ago
nathanasmith|1 year ago
I don't care how many times this is repeated it's utterly preposterous. Imagine being so naive or less charitably to possess the motivated reasoning to actually believe this shit.
username135|1 year ago
If you can make a market out of it, someone will.
flandish|1 year ago
Yes you can. It’s capitalism. The owners of the current system lobby and advertise and “manufacture consent” in keeping the current system because it is wildly profitable.
That’s really all there is to it.
jrockway|1 year ago
I assume most people have too much money taken out of their paycheck for taxes, so the net result is that the government takes in extra money.
bigstrat2003|1 year ago
janalsncm|1 year ago
pydry|1 year ago
You can help choose the brand of oligarchy that runs the United States but you can't vote against it.
afroboy|1 year ago
The rest of the world call this a bribe.
tlb|1 year ago
rufus_foreman|1 year ago
Should people who are receiving welfare benefits be allowed to vote?
nneonneo|1 year ago
I welcome the Americans to the delightful convenience of hassle-free taxes!
balls187|1 year ago
willcipriano|1 year ago
> hassle-free taxes
That's still a crazy demand on the time of someone paying for everything. My bank, my employer and my brokerage all report on me, the IRS should be able to just mail a check or a bill most of the time.
magicalhippo|1 year ago
For years the big hassle was that housing loans only got put on one of us, but since we're both paying on the loan, the loan and deductions should be split as well. So that had to be manually calculated and corrected on each of our declarations.
However last year they fixed that. Now they get the split from the property ownership registry and distribute the loan and deductions according to that. For most people they pay similar to their ownership, typically 50/50, so no need to change that anymore.
Our IRS' has a quite good internal development team[1], rather than relying on contractors for everything. Their digital solutions has been several steps ahead most other agencies.
[1]: https://www.skatteetaten.no/nn/itjobb/ledige-stillinger/
kernal|1 year ago
946789987649|1 year ago
web3-is-a-scam|1 year ago
UFile downloaded everything for me, autofilled my return, submitted it online back to the CRA and charged me $30 for the privilege. LMAO
2four2|1 year ago
1oooqooq|1 year ago
did you ever try to use any USA federal service? (veteran benefits, free tax filing, ssn, etc). you're required an id.me account.
what's that? well some anonymous group saw login.gov, realized the value of the data, and lobbied that it should be open to free capital markets to explore, not the government!
so now if you want to even talk to the irs or veteran service, you need to go to that privately owned id.me site, do a video call, scan all the documents they ask for (even ones without visible anti counterfeit mechanics like your typewritter filled ssn card).
and the best part? right after you create your account, you land on a coupon clipping page that is a facsimile of the garbage pamphlet the usps is forced to shove daily in yout physical mailbox! and among the links on that page are links to Whitepapers about how advertisers can benefit from buying user data from them because it includes gov affiliation like vetetan, taxpayer, etc and bank information!
1oooqooq|1 year ago
i bet Stalin also had good approval after the purge
tacocataco|1 year ago
Getting taxes automated is a solved problem. There is only one reason this status quo persisted for so many years. it's just to bad that we must bend the knee before the real americans, Intuit's lobbyists.
I'm glad the IRS is showing signs of wriggling free of such influence, but it is unfortunately to late a fix for yet another unforgiveable position for me.
The US government has shown me its priorities again and again throughout my life, and it's not the people. There is no rehabilitating this image in my eyes.
Hopefully I can be proven wrong, and the next generation can grow up far less cynical of our elected representatives.
monero-xmr|1 year ago
I support free file for most people. I also support radically simplifying the tax code, which would make the Byzantines blush.
bradley13|1 year ago
That out if the way, I agree with the earlier comment: why does the government automatically know all your financial details? Where is the privacy? Where is the requirement for a warrant, to access your private information?
LoganDark|1 year ago
How is this possible? Where I live, you can expect to pay around 30% of your income as tax almost regardless of how much money you actually make (as long as it's above something like $600 a year).
ThePowerOfFuet|1 year ago
sublinear|1 year ago
I do not want to be forced to mail in paper forms just so I can do my taxes for real.
exegete|1 year ago
bigstrat2003|1 year ago
cess11|1 year ago
This year it took me five minutes and cost whatever I pay for my bank account, which I used for identification. $30 maybe? I could have waited a bit for papers through the mail and approved with a SMS.
Might be an OK goal for US:ian lawmakers.
MaintenanceMode|1 year ago
krashidov|1 year ago
jrajav|1 year ago
But of course the direct answer is that throwing the full faith and credit of the US (that is, in showing earnest and steady effort to pay off its debts, something that worldwide investors count on) straight out the window would immediately tank the value of the dollar, which wouldn't be good for anyone paid in dollars.
If the implication is that we should not bother to run our finances honestly and responsibly because of some idea that the checks written by lawmakers aren't for things we all agree on, then it seems like a bit of a non sequitur. The time to decide on that is when we decide who writes those checks, but we have every incentive to commit and honor our debts after that.
colonwqbang|1 year ago
In the rest of the world in many places we have been filling taxes directly online for many years. Sorry Americans, you did not invent free electronic tax filing. You are at least twenty years late to the party.
asadotzler|1 year ago
deadlydose|1 year ago
refurb|1 year ago
He the President of America you know?
kelthuzad|1 year ago
lolinder|1 year ago
jimbob45|1 year ago
egberts1|1 year ago