Hi there, I am on developement team of Newnode, a successor of FireChat founded by two of the same people (https://www.newnode.com/). We now provide both, a VPN and a Messenger, with purpose to help people evade censorship and enable device-to-device connectivity. You can find the source code at https://github.com/clostra/newnode
When I get to the phone number step, it briefly shows a captcha screen but then transitions to the phone number screen.
When I enter my phone number. Country code +47. I don’t get any sms at all.
When I switch to the sms app to see if an sms arrived (it didn’t), and I switch back to your app, the counter on the screen that is counting down to allow resending code resets to 00:59 although it was at like 00:30 when I switched away from the app.
When after waiting for another full minute and occasionally touching the screen to prevent it from locking I am presented with the following options when clicking “I didn’t get a code”:
- Contact NewNode Support
- Resend code
- Call me instead
- Cancel
I tried resend code. No code arrives still.
Great, now I have to wait another full minute with your app in focus before I can try another option.
After waiting another full minute, I click “call me instead”. No call comes.
Hey there thank you for taking the time to respond. I have a few questions:
The sign up process is surprisingly difficult and doesn't appear to be working.
The CAPTCHA is VERY thorough. I couldn't seem to get it to agree that I was human. When I finally solved it, the submit button is hidden (you have to scroll for some reason).
When I enter my phone number it prompts me to enter a code that never arrived. When I click "I didn't receive a code" the app sends me back to the CAPTCHA (lol). I complete the captcha again and request the code.
I went through this process three or four times before I gave up. This seems like an ongoing issue[1]
Does the app have many users? Any users?
The last blog post on the NewNode site was July of last year.
According to the App Store there has been three minor updates- 3, 9 and 12 months ago. No notes on the updates.
Does NewNode have a road map?
I couldn't find any write ups about the app anywhere. No press coverage.
I'm just curious, why not build ontop of another app like Signal?[0] My understanding is that there's nothing stopping anyone from using the same app and creating their own server and nodes. My understanding is that you can even hook into multiple nodes with a custom fork of the app. Wouldn't this give a big advantage of not requiring people to have a whole new app and you can work synergistically with a company with similar/compatable goals?
The thing I see is that if you really want to make a huge P2P network, you need a reason to have the app installed for reasons other than P2P. The problem I've always seen with FireChat was that I'd never get anyone to talk to me and then when there was an emergency no one would be able to download. So we need to have the features built into something with more normal day-to-day utility.
It requires phone number for registration.
Site explain this as it is unique and hard to obtain en masse.
But it is not so. Phone numbers are controlled effectively by governments if needed, they are re-used, and they cheap-dirt in some countries (like, I could get SIM card in Serbia or Laos for about 1 Euro on the street).
About re-use: When I get new number in Serbia Is tarted to get a lot of SMSes and later WhatsApp messages about my debts, from very aggressive people. It was not scam, but this number only 3 months before that was used by some local guy who got into big troubles with loan sharks. They were Ok when I explained that I'm expat with SIM card bought in the newspaper stand, but I needed to explain it something like 50 times!
Sorry, but phone number is BAD ID and SMS is TERRIBLE 2FA / confirmation media.
> Then, one day in February 2020, as COVID-19 swept the globe, access to FireChat was completely cut off without explanation.
If it could be shut off from one place like that, it doesn't sound very "decentralized". Anyway, are there significant obstacles to re-implementation?
Someone above mentioned an alternative that uses LoRa. That's nice but it sounds like the attraction of Firechat was that it used ordinary phones that everyone already has. LoRa by comparison is special hardware that is already a bit suspicious.
If you're willing to use special purpose radios and live with low bandwidth text communication, you can do quite a bit better than LoRa, such as with JS8CALL and HF radios. But, a sad "theorem" tells us that any communications medium will be beaten into carrying video....
Once you realize that the ability to update code, obviously, negates any advantage "end-to-end encryption" brings, or any other form of security, you'll quickly find there is not a single secure messenger.
This is an argument I've never been able to successfully make to anyone except a military colonel.
TIL Briar does "offline messaging". This is news to me, though I've never used it.
That said, I am curious to hear more about the offline messaging. If it only is able to exchange when the two people who are trying to communicate with eachother are directly nearby it isn't so much a mesh network, right? A mesh network would be able to route across other nodes to get to its destination. Does Briar do that? The "How it works" page doesn't really seem to answer much, so I am assuming not.
I think a combination of LoRa, bluetooth, and WiFi might be the alternative. I've seen videos of LoRA functioning below the noise floor (perfect for evading RF triangulation), and at 200km (perfect for reaching past physical borders). The major weakness is line of sight (and availability), but bluetooth and WiFi can help there.
Briar is awesome. Ive used it to talk to my wife when we are seated away from each other in planes or trains and cant get up, via bluetooth due to lack of service, wifi, or because of airplane mode.
To be clear, FireChat was a proprietary and closed source app which went away for reasons that only the people controlling it truly understand. That immediately suggests to me more of a "the money ran out" situation vs the more salacious "the CIA had a word" style implication at the end of the parent.
Huh, I've had the mesh network concept rolling around in the back of my head for years specifically due to FireChat. I had no idea it was gone - guess I took it for granted.
Wonder if anybody's got more info on what happened?
While I quite like Meshtastic and have literally dozens of t-beams, they serve fairly different usecases. Meshtastic is great for keeping in touch with your preorganized paragliding group or whatever, but the need for special hardware will always limit adoption in emergent scenarios vs. FireChat's "we're going to the protest; install this app".
Several years ago (circa 2015) I was asked to build an app like FireChat by just the _oddest_ couple of guys I've ever met. They wanted an app where you could connect to other folks just by being near them. I never could get them to agree on what exactly the app was supposed to be beyond that.
The first gentleman was a VP-type for a large company. He insisted that the app (nicknamed "Pals" at the time) was for people with similar interests to find each other and connect based on just being near the same place at the same time.
The second partner was a well-known lawyer in my city. When I mentioned their app sounds like a dating app, this guy says to the first man, "SEE! It's a dating app." And then he proceeds to tell me (in graphic detail) his proposed strategy to build a dating app that would tell you where the other person is when you go to meet them in person. He essentially wanted to be able to spy on them to see if the person matched their online description or not before committing to the date.
I thought the idea, while clever, was also super creepy but offered to build it for them. I thought if they pivoted to something like large-scale live events they might have something. Imagine going to a sporting event and having a group chat with everyone else at the stadium. Great way to make new friends/contacts to hang out with later.
They hired a marketing firm to build it instead, and last I heard they had given up on the idea. I guess the only good that really came out of it was that I had a lawyer to call when I had to go to traffic court a few years later. Turns out he was actually pretty good at his job.
FireChat was never going to be resilient enough because it was installed on Apple and Google controlled devices.
This kind of system needs a dedicated or at least 'open' device with adequate hardware to support wireless mesh networks.
I would love to see something like this, because we (even, or rather, especially; Western countries) currently have no decentralized fallback for emergency communication. If the electric grid and cellphone network go... most people don't even have AM radios at this point.
If the electric grid and cellphone go, what would be the problem with devices being Apple- and Google-controlled?
It seems like you're talking about two related but ultimately distinct concerns, i.e. reliance against infrastructure failures and reliance against organizational failures.
It's been years since I had it, but I uninstalled it when I figured out it was breaking my phones wifi connectivity. I don't know how or why, but when it was installed, my wifi was inconsistent and would frequently drop. I would uninstall it, and the problem would go away. This was on Android at least 5 years, and maybe as many as 10.
the eulogy also forgets it was a mesh-tweeter public and all, not a mesh end to end private comunication solution people should have been using on those situations.
The article mentions Singaporeans, so I was very curious to find out how they were involved. But the word (erroneously?) links to the Hong Kong protests movement.
If you really want a chat tool to start a revolution, meet in person with people you trust and don't bring any electronic devices with you. And only talk to people who you really trust. Forget phones.
[+] [-] krb5|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] nikolajan|1 year ago|reply
And if not, it seems unrealistic to expect people to adopt / trust your alternative.
[+] [-] codetrotter|1 year ago|reply
When I get to the phone number step, it briefly shows a captcha screen but then transitions to the phone number screen.
When I enter my phone number. Country code +47. I don’t get any sms at all.
When I switch to the sms app to see if an sms arrived (it didn’t), and I switch back to your app, the counter on the screen that is counting down to allow resending code resets to 00:59 although it was at like 00:30 when I switched away from the app.
When after waiting for another full minute and occasionally touching the screen to prevent it from locking I am presented with the following options when clicking “I didn’t get a code”:
- Contact NewNode Support
- Resend code
- Call me instead
- Cancel
I tried resend code. No code arrives still.
Great, now I have to wait another full minute with your app in focus before I can try another option.
After waiting another full minute, I click “call me instead”. No call comes.
[+] [-] jayveeone|1 year ago|reply
The sign up process is surprisingly difficult and doesn't appear to be working.
The CAPTCHA is VERY thorough. I couldn't seem to get it to agree that I was human. When I finally solved it, the submit button is hidden (you have to scroll for some reason).
When I enter my phone number it prompts me to enter a code that never arrived. When I click "I didn't receive a code" the app sends me back to the CAPTCHA (lol). I complete the captcha again and request the code.
I went through this process three or four times before I gave up. This seems like an ongoing issue[1]
Does the app have many users? Any users?
The last blog post on the NewNode site was July of last year.
According to the App Store there has been three minor updates- 3, 9 and 12 months ago. No notes on the updates.
Does NewNode have a road map?
I couldn't find any write ups about the app anywhere. No press coverage.
So, why did FireChat close down?
Edit: I just completed 10 CAPTCHAs in a row.
[1] https://x.com/zyz09061682717/status/1711515687095525515
[+] [-] stevenwalton|1 year ago|reply
The thing I see is that if you really want to make a huge P2P network, you need a reason to have the app installed for reasons other than P2P. The problem I've always seen with FireChat was that I'd never get anyone to talk to me and then when there was an emergency no one would be able to download. So we need to have the features built into something with more normal day-to-day utility.
[0] https://community.signalusers.org/t/signal-airdrop/37402
[+] [-] brokenbyclouds|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] guntars|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] miguelazo|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] bishbosh|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] blacklion|1 year ago|reply
But it is not so. Phone numbers are controlled effectively by governments if needed, they are re-used, and they cheap-dirt in some countries (like, I could get SIM card in Serbia or Laos for about 1 Euro on the street).
About re-use: When I get new number in Serbia Is tarted to get a lot of SMSes and later WhatsApp messages about my debts, from very aggressive people. It was not scam, but this number only 3 months before that was used by some local guy who got into big troubles with loan sharks. They were Ok when I explained that I'm expat with SIM card bought in the newspaper stand, but I needed to explain it something like 50 times!
Sorry, but phone number is BAD ID and SMS is TERRIBLE 2FA / confirmation media.
[+] [-] throwaway81523|1 year ago|reply
If it could be shut off from one place like that, it doesn't sound very "decentralized". Anyway, are there significant obstacles to re-implementation?
Someone above mentioned an alternative that uses LoRa. That's nice but it sounds like the attraction of Firechat was that it used ordinary phones that everyone already has. LoRa by comparison is special hardware that is already a bit suspicious.
If you're willing to use special purpose radios and live with low bandwidth text communication, you can do quite a bit better than LoRa, such as with JS8CALL and HF radios. But, a sad "theorem" tells us that any communications medium will be beaten into carrying video....
[+] [-] candiodari|1 year ago|reply
This is an argument I've never been able to successfully make to anyone except a military colonel.
[+] [-] luuurker|1 year ago|reply
https://briarproject.org/
edit: How it works: https://briarproject.org/how-it-works/
[+] [-] jchw|1 year ago|reply
That said, I am curious to hear more about the offline messaging. If it only is able to exchange when the two people who are trying to communicate with eachother are directly nearby it isn't so much a mesh network, right? A mesh network would be able to route across other nodes to get to its destination. Does Briar do that? The "How it works" page doesn't really seem to answer much, so I am assuming not.
[+] [-] zamalek|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] bishbosh|1 year ago|reply
Beyond that though, at this point for protests (in the US at least), the suggested opsec is to leave your phone at home.
[+] [-] lionkor|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] mminer237|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] unstatusthequo|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] bishbosh|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] lelandbatey|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] Klonoar|1 year ago|reply
Wonder if anybody's got more info on what happened?
[+] [-] ianpenney|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] livueta|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] twodave|1 year ago|reply
Several years ago (circa 2015) I was asked to build an app like FireChat by just the _oddest_ couple of guys I've ever met. They wanted an app where you could connect to other folks just by being near them. I never could get them to agree on what exactly the app was supposed to be beyond that.
The first gentleman was a VP-type for a large company. He insisted that the app (nicknamed "Pals" at the time) was for people with similar interests to find each other and connect based on just being near the same place at the same time.
The second partner was a well-known lawyer in my city. When I mentioned their app sounds like a dating app, this guy says to the first man, "SEE! It's a dating app." And then he proceeds to tell me (in graphic detail) his proposed strategy to build a dating app that would tell you where the other person is when you go to meet them in person. He essentially wanted to be able to spy on them to see if the person matched their online description or not before committing to the date.
I thought the idea, while clever, was also super creepy but offered to build it for them. I thought if they pivoted to something like large-scale live events they might have something. Imagine going to a sporting event and having a group chat with everyone else at the stadium. Great way to make new friends/contacts to hang out with later.
They hired a marketing firm to build it instead, and last I heard they had given up on the idea. I guess the only good that really came out of it was that I had a lawyer to call when I had to go to traffic court a few years later. Turns out he was actually pretty good at his job.
[+] [-] ChiperSoft|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] dgski|1 year ago|reply
This kind of system needs a dedicated or at least 'open' device with adequate hardware to support wireless mesh networks.
I would love to see something like this, because we (even, or rather, especially; Western countries) currently have no decentralized fallback for emergency communication. If the electric grid and cellphone network go... most people don't even have AM radios at this point.
[+] [-] lxgr|1 year ago|reply
It seems like you're talking about two related but ultimately distinct concerns, i.e. reliance against infrastructure failures and reliance against organizational failures.
[+] [-] ParanoidShroom|1 year ago|reply
It seem Stas has since then started clostra.com The fireside chat messenger just rebranded. https://www.newnode.com/download.
I love a good conspiracy but shows little evidence.
[+] [-] motakuk|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] MostlyStable|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] 1oooqooq|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] Quarrel|1 year ago|reply
I never used it, but remember the hype. It didn't get there by not working.
[+] [-] zzzeek|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] groby_b|1 year ago|reply
The text mentions an anodyne "for business reasons", so that should leave the door wide open for any conspiracy theories ;)
[+] [-] k3nt0456|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] matricaria|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] ltrls23|1 year ago|reply
It seems very nice.
[+] [-] miguelazo|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] m3kw9|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] eli|1 year ago|reply
This seems needlessly conspiratorial. Apps and companies disappear all the time and it's usually for boring reasons.
[+] [-] vouaobrasil|1 year ago|reply