Europeans have more time, Americans more money. Which is better?

[whatindaheck]

Different people have different preferences. This is something I never see brought up in these debates. There is no definitive better option. This comment section demonstrates that.

Some people are motivated by a sure thing for less reward while others are motivated by risk and greater reward. In my view America caters to the risk takers while much of the EU caters to the play-it-safe crowd.

There’s nothing wrong with either approach. We need both types of people to keep a healthy and balanced world.

To /really/ extrapolate I’ve wondered the same about economic systems. Is this solution A vs. B or are some individuals motivated differently? If so, can we create a world where different motivation systems can peacefully interact?

[nebula8804]

>In my view America caters to the risk takers while much of the EU caters to the play-it-safe crowd.

And the opposite group in each region suffers. They live in hell. In the US you are left to die on the street if you don't hustle. In the EU its evidently clear that you will not be in good company if you are a risk taker.

[alihm]

https://archive.is/9DB2K

[mlhpdx]

This brings to mind a concern that's closer to home for me, which is the similar dynamic in the US between urban and rural populations.

I grew up in a rural area, and different people will of course have had contrary experiences, but I recall people having more "free time" (which I understand to be time we choose how to use). That time wasn't always used in the most constructive of ways, perhaps, but the choice was there. People were busy, but how they were busy was largely (not always) a reflection of choice.

I don't recall ever seeing someone manifest the adage "hurry up so you can wait" until I moved to urban settings (including Manhattan). It was a huge weirdness to me then, and is now as well. Is waiting a choice? Perhaps, but only to some degree as the necessities of life are in more demand and queued. I moved to cities for the most commonly expressed reason: opportunity. Or, plainly, money. And it worked.

I moved away from cities to my current rural oasis to gain space and time (and greenery), having become tired of the constant need to be on time, and in the right place, competing with masses of other people at every turn -- that is, not having a choice about my time. This move also worked.

Not sure I have a point other than it isn't always obvious when time is traded for money and vise versa, perhaps be intentional about it if the opportunity presents itself (and respect those that choose differently).

[jauntywundrkind]

I think America used to have a closer relationship with agency. We were part of building the world around us, making businesses, homes, farms, whatever. Having role models around who did visible clear work was a powerful way to see & experience the world, was a lesson in how we could shape ourselves.

Now that America is more scut jobs at impersonal chains or other far off companies, or being lost in some small sector of the massive organizational chain of command, I truly fear for Americans. The advantage of being work based comes with none of the fulfilment, leads to far far fewer people becoming community role models. We've been swallowed by the beast, are in the belly of the giants, many go which we have created (and let endlessly consolidate/amass in size).

The question supposes an individual balance, of what's better for a person. But what's good for a society, what happens to a society over time: I think there's an interesting and very strong virtue America used to get, that helped grow our people, helped keep us agentic, that kept us engaged with & shaping the world about us in a really powerful & amazing way. And losing that fire, and now just being anonymous & low agency in a huge grind, that's a brutal & scary new path for us, one where yeah of course if this is so pointless we'd pick time & leisure.

[Rinzler89]

Better is the one you're in need of the most at present time, there's no corect answer for anyone based on their continent.

Silly article.

[berkes]

The article explains exatcly this in detail, though. So, not silly article" but rather "silly headline".

[UncleOxidant]

True. I've often found it mutually exclusive: when I have the money I have no time and when I have the time I have no money.

[cjbenedikt]

"...the US produces more innovation, some of it beneficial. There is no European Google, Tesla or Facebook." But what about infrastructure? Roads, public transport,health insurance - or better health industry, pensions?

[bdjsiqoocwk]

I think the implication is that Tesla Google and Facebook contribute to American wealth, whereas roads, public transportation, health insurance consume European wealth.

I think it's questionable whether theres a valid point in there somewhere.

[underseacables]

It depends on what you do with that time, or money.

[chgs]

More time spent doom scrolling is of no benefit. More money spent on higher rents is of no benefit.

[zepearl]

And it depends on how prone you're to invest ALL your time & money into your "thing"? Less for europeans, more for americans?

[627467]

the problem with EUropeans is not work ethics. is lack of ambition, dreams, drive. the existing work ethics is perfectly fine for this, why work more for no reason.

we can also discuss the causes for this lacking. it's probably a mix of coasting and entitlement but lately I just think it's due to the mud, the institutional and social swamp that EUrope has become. you can observe paralysis at all levels.

to the question: which is better? my view: the one that lets you have more of the other.

[bdjsiqoocwk]

European here. I agree with lack of ambition, at least if were talking about averages and comparing to America.

> due to the mud, the institutional and social swamp that EUrope has become

But this, I'd like to know what you're talking about. I've lived in the US, the US gov is worse than the average EU government at least from the pov of a citizen having to interact with it. When people complain about EU institutions I wonder if they're just regurgitating talking points they've heard somewhere. And don't tell me about gov efficiency either - how many hundreds of billions does the Pentagon "misplace" every year?

[trueismywork]

Yes at a systems level

[thefz]

> the problem with EUropeans is not work ethics. is lack of ambition, dreams, drive

For all of them? You met them all?

[coldtea]

Assuming Americans live forever and get to enjoy their life, kids, family, and friends, and to live for decades youthfully after retirement, obviously the second!

[thefz]

Maybe not everyone lives for profit and value is in the time spent outside work. You know, actually living one's life.

[blackeyeblitzar]

Another question - would this answer be different if Europe did not have access to innovations that have come out of America? To what extent is more time “enabled” by good relations and mostly free trade with America? And in the reverse, to what extent is America’s money enabled by having access to European markets?

[berkes]

You narrow your question down too much. Because the answer is mostly "neither".

The actual question would be "would this answer be different if Europe did not have access to cheap labor that have come out of Asia, South Americas and Africa" or "To what extent is more time “enabled” by externalising many costs?". And consequentially "to what extent is America’s money enabled by having access to cheap labor, cheap manufacturing and externalising costs to Asian, South American and African markets".

[noashavit]

You can't buy more time...

[vondur]

Should be interesting in the years ahead. Europe appears to be getting poorer and that may accelerate as these European governments have to spend more on defense to counter Russian ambitions. The French are pretty adamant about retirement age tampering by the government.

[cjbenedikt]

"European states will go bust, the argument goes, and then Europeans will have to work like Americans. The facts suggest otherwise. The US has a higher government debt-to-GDP ratio than almost all European countries: 123 per cent, nearly double that of work-shy Germany, and triple Norway, Sweden and Denmark, reports the IMF."

[romerocarlos]

Americans. If Europeans worked the same hours as Americans, the EU's GDP per capita would be close to the heels of that of the US.

[anotherhue]

You may be interested in this chart from an earlier post today

https://klinger.io/images/eu-acc-work-times-1024w.png

TLDR: America is about the median hours worked.

[berkes]

> "The facts suggest otherwise. The US has a higher government debt-to-GDP ratio than almost all European countries: 123 per cent, nearly double that of work-shy Germany, and triple Norway, Sweden and Denmark, reports the IMF."

[internet2000]

You can use money to buy time. You can't convert time to money as easily.

[nerpderp82]

Not if your spending all the time to make the money. Lots of folks can't go on vacation because their job will throw them under the bus when they are away.

[ovulator]

I can get money with my time via a job, how exactly do I get time with the money I now have.

[pwinkeler]

Said no one on their deathbed ever...

[haunter]

As a european: money

[muhaaa]

In Soviet Union people had lots of time too. Especially waiting in line...

[beezlewax]

This is the opposite of having time.

[bdjsiqoocwk]

Ok but... We're not waiting in line?

What's your point, that Europe is a horrible place to live like the USSR was? Make a point.