Disclosure: I work for GM, this is solely my own opinion
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This article doesn't mention it, but the other problem Hertz has is that Tesla has lowered the price of their vehicles. This is great news for new buyers, not so much for people who want to trade or sell their vehicles. Incidentally, this is why other OEMs offer cash-back or other limited time or limited scope offers - they can have less effect on trade-in values.
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Incidentally, this cycle of downward pressure on new vehicle price is a partial cause of GM's decline. GM had a goal to remain the #1 North American automaker by sales volume - to do this they sold a lot of cars to rental fleets - those rental cars come back on the market after about 1 year at a discount and compete with new car sales and put downward pressure on price.
Again, if you are a consumer looking for a low price, this is nice; if you are looking to run a company that can invest in product engineering, not so much.
There are plenty of reports about how Tesla has made this difficult. Tesla parts are difficult to obtain even for Tesla’s own service centers: there are frequent months-long waits. “Certified” non-Tesla shops get parts at a lower priority, non-certified shops simply cannot order most parts (just basic stuff like bumpers)
This is one of the reasons I disliked Tesla from the outset. Other manufacturers have various levels of challenge on repairs, but from the very moment they released the model S, they have been extremely aggressive at making any sort of third party repair impossible. Even connecting to the vehicle diagnostics got the vehicle to phone home and people at Tesla to actively subvert your attempt to learn or diagnose anything. For as much shit as we talk about "being green", making a car harder to fix (and thus much more likely to just get totalled and scrapped when it could ostensibly be fixed and serviced) is about as "anti-green" and anti-consumer as I could imagine.
>>Soon, a body shop found a quarter-size hole in the undercarriage he hadn’t seen before, which led to revelations of deeper issues inside. “The high-voltage battery pack is damaged and could cause extreme safety concerns,” a Tesla technician texted him. Because the hole was “exterior damage,” it wasn’t covered by the warranty, which meant a $13,078.58 repair bill.
Looks like selective quoting to me, the quarter sized hole was under the battery pack, which was damaged.
Since the hole was punched upward from the ground, it counted as exterior damage.
So $13,078.58 to fix the hole and battery pack issue.
It's not just a quarter size hole. It's a quarter size hole in the high voltage battery pack, which is indeed extremely dangerous and needs specialized equipment and skill to replace.
Sometimes I wonder how much careful / research is appropriate for questions like this. To wit:
For me, thinking in broad strokes seems sufficient here:
(1) Tesla has a reputation for lengthy, extremely costly repairs.
(2) Tesla is led by Musk, whose leadership strikes me as erratic and unreliable in the best of times.
(3) Tesla seems to be in financial trouble, which I'd expect to only exacerbate (1) and (2).
(4) Tesla just called into question the availability of their U.S. charging network, which reminds me that a Teslas are local-only vehicles unless you're confident there's a charging network to support your trips.
(5) I can't afford to spend $30k on an unreliable vehicle, nor a reliable one with $5k+ repairs.
I'm curious if looking at this more carefully would change my mind. And if so, is there a way I could have recognized that before contenting myself with the broad strokes mentioned above?
> I can't afford to spend $30k on an unreliable vehicle, nor a reliable one with $5k+ repairs.
Then you should get a Tesla, because once you get past the FUD on HN, Reddit and the media, in the real world Consumer Reports found that Teslas had the lowest repair and maintenance costs compared to other car brands. Yes, even Toyota and Honda.
The submitted story is passing off one anecdote as if it applies to all used Teslas sold by Hertz, and it already showed up multiple times on HN's front page from different media outlets. You can make a story out of that for any brand, but curiously there's a pattern there. There's a lot of anti-EV propaganda in the media and social media in the past year. And it's working very well, given comments like yours.
$25,000 for a two year old $47,000 car with 70,000 miles already on it may not be that great a deal. A brand new one is that price so you're basically paying 31.5 cents a mile to buy the newer ...
Miles are irrelevant, they’ll last forever (based on fleet powertrain reliability stats). It’s a great deal if you’re going to drive it until it dies and you need mobility, assuming for whatever reason you don’t qualify for incentives or credits that would get a new one to the used price.
(have over 200k miles collectively on three Teslas)
If used cars will have software locks and fixing will be prohibited without cloud services their price will drop much quicker after the time of warranty
> And to be fair, this isn't all that much different than other luxury cars like BMWs and Audis.
It's different in that those have much larger and more readily available 3rd party repair shops, parts, and used parts. You can often shop around and get alternatives. With Tesla you're a lot more locked in.
I work on my BMW all the time. Never have an issue getting a part, and no the parts are not 2-3x more expensive than an equivalent non-BMW part. People kept telling me that, they were wrong.
And by work on I mean I've done the intercooler, downpipe, brakes, rotors, calipers, plugs, injectors, and silly things like airfilters, fluids, etc.
Very different from BMW and Audi. Those have a huge third party parts market, and independent shops have full access to the car.
The official diagnostic software from BMW is available for only $2700 per year. Plug it in, click a few buttons and it tells you exactly what is wrong with any BMW, troubleshooting steps, diagrams of the parts and what parts to order etc: https://bmwtechinfo.bmwgroup.com/
If you're not an official shop and don't care about the legalities, the same can be downloaded for $10 at home...
I'm in Denmark, the country with a 150% tax on new cars. I think there's still a discount on electrics though.
$30.000 is a lot, I know it's a luxury car, but a new model 3 is still "only" 50.000USD. The discount simply isn't high enough and $30.000 is more than I would want to spend on a new car anyway. I can get a Hyundai i10 for $20.000 which functionally does the exact same thing for me. Sadly it's not electric.
Not sure how it is today, but when I bought my first home in 1996, I needed to come up with 20% down in order to avoid wasting my money on PMI. PMI only benefits the lender, and the cost cannot be deducted as part of your mortgage interest tax credit. So if the same requirement still exists today, you can get a $150k house with 20% down for your $30k. Depending upon where you live and what you want, this may or may not be a realistic plan.
for a standard 20% downpayment so you aren't screwing yourself over so badly on your mortage, $30,000 only works if your house somehow magically only costs $150,000. Good luck finding that in this market. These days your downpayment needs to be closer to $100k.
This article is biased in my opinion. Colleague bought BMW with broken gearbox. Warranty covered 2/3 of repair costs. That’s typical mistake when buying nice car and not checking it thoroughly.
For electric vehicle it is even more important. I would lift the car during test drive in random repair shop, go by myself under it and check the bottom. Battery is most expensive part there. And most fragile too. And also easy to check without special tooling.
I also wouldn’t buy a car with 70000 miles on it. That’s the mileage when things start to fail. It is also out of warranty. Battery might be still under warranty, but that’s not very useful. Tesla solved these issues in the past. Other thing is that these were rental cars. So they were treated extremely poor for years. The buyer of Herz Tesla should be well prepared for all possible expensive surprises.
Edit: I wouldn’t buy a car made after 2005 with 70000+ miles on it. The family cars made before outlived the ones made after 2015. 7 data points at the moment.
Edit2: CAN-Bluetooth dongle with an app isn’t really a tool. Not having it while buying a car for 25k is a gamble. Add also tool for paint thickness measurement. Everything else is naive. Nobody sells very good car for a very good price.
> I also wouldn’t buy a car with 70000 miles on it. That’s the mileage when things start to fail.
In an ICE sure (and that is even questionable, had a '96 Honda Civic go 300+k) but what wears on an EV aside from batteries? Bearings? There's so much less mechanical crap that an EV should really outlast a gas bunner by decades. Then again all the plastic crap and junk electronics have crippled automobiles.
I have a 4runner with 260k miles,an F250 with 250k, and a Chevy Volt with 188k. Not a single one has ever left me stranded, and I wouldn't hesitate to take any of them on a cross country trip.
To be honest, I really think a newer car will be in the shop sooner than my vehicles will have a hiccup. My friends that buy Audi, BMW, jag, are usually in the shop soon after purchase for something random.
> (batteries are) easy to check without special tooling.
What on earth are you taking about?
Physical damage to the case, maybe. But physical damage to the cells, no way. Water damage from the cooling system will only be inside. And battery capacity is only visible in the battery management system. Which is only available from CAN with vendor-specific software.
>I also wouldn’t buy a car with 70000 miles on it. That’s the mileage when things start to fail.
California, the state with the highest EV sales especially for Tesla, mandates that batteries be warrantied for 10y/150k miles. 70k leaves most of the warranty intact.
type_Ben_struct|1 year ago
ChrisArchitect|1 year ago
How Hertz’s bet on Teslas went sideways
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39928913
Hertz is ditching even more electric cars
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40183174
csours|1 year ago
---
This article doesn't mention it, but the other problem Hertz has is that Tesla has lowered the price of their vehicles. This is great news for new buyers, not so much for people who want to trade or sell their vehicles. Incidentally, this is why other OEMs offer cash-back or other limited time or limited scope offers - they can have less effect on trade-in values.
---
Incidentally, this cycle of downward pressure on new vehicle price is a partial cause of GM's decline. GM had a goal to remain the #1 North American automaker by sales volume - to do this they sold a lot of cars to rental fleets - those rental cars come back on the market after about 1 year at a discount and compete with new car sales and put downward pressure on price.
Again, if you are a consumer looking for a low price, this is nice; if you are looking to run a company that can invest in product engineering, not so much.
paulddraper|1 year ago
Have they actually come back down?
supportengineer|1 year ago
Years ago I read this advice "Find an under-served market and serve it cheaply."
There's an opportunity here for a 3rd party to service and repair Teslas at a reasonable price.
Lx1oG-AWb6h_ZG0|1 year ago
0: https://www.reddit.com/r/Insurance/s/fkcTScUDpL
rpcope1|1 year ago
themaninthedark|1 year ago
Looks like selective quoting to me, the quarter sized hole was under the battery pack, which was damaged.
Since the hole was punched upward from the ground, it counted as exterior damage.
So $13,078.58 to fix the hole and battery pack issue.
porphyra|1 year ago
devmor|1 year ago
My bets are on supply chain or Tesla refusing to honor warranties if you get work done elsewhere.
bombcar|1 year ago
xyst|1 year ago
> Only new Tesla parts, Tesla-approved fasteners, and Tesla-approved structural adhesives must be used when performing repairs on Tesla vehicles.
https://service.tesla.com/docs/BodyRepair/Body_Repair_Proced...
What’s not clear: how much are those “new Tesla parts”?
Tesla uses some scary language to make it seem like they are the only ones that can repair their product.
They have taken a page out of the Apple playbook.
CoastalCoder|1 year ago
For me, thinking in broad strokes seems sufficient here:
(1) Tesla has a reputation for lengthy, extremely costly repairs.
(2) Tesla is led by Musk, whose leadership strikes me as erratic and unreliable in the best of times.
(3) Tesla seems to be in financial trouble, which I'd expect to only exacerbate (1) and (2).
(4) Tesla just called into question the availability of their U.S. charging network, which reminds me that a Teslas are local-only vehicles unless you're confident there's a charging network to support your trips.
(5) I can't afford to spend $30k on an unreliable vehicle, nor a reliable one with $5k+ repairs.
I'm curious if looking at this more carefully would change my mind. And if so, is there a way I could have recognized that before contenting myself with the broad strokes mentioned above?
ripjaygn|1 year ago
Then you should get a Tesla, because once you get past the FUD on HN, Reddit and the media, in the real world Consumer Reports found that Teslas had the lowest repair and maintenance costs compared to other car brands. Yes, even Toyota and Honda.
https://www.kbb.com/car-news/consumer-reports-names-cheapest...
The submitted story is passing off one anecdote as if it applies to all used Teslas sold by Hertz, and it already showed up multiple times on HN's front page from different media outlets. You can make a story out of that for any brand, but curiously there's a pattern there. There's a lot of anti-EV propaganda in the media and social media in the past year. And it's working very well, given comments like yours.
bombcar|1 year ago
toomuchtodo|1 year ago
(have over 200k miles collectively on three Teslas)
bearjaws|1 year ago
01100011|1 year ago
autoexecbat|1 year ago
sonicanatidae|1 year ago
[deleted]
fmajid|1 year ago
https://www.wired.com/story/why-teslas-totaled-in-the-us-are...
2OEH8eoCRo0|1 year ago
thebruce87m|1 year ago
> 8 years or 100,000 miles, whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period.
https://www.tesla.com/support/vehicle-warranty
In reality, an NMC battery would last 1000+ cycles. If you get 200 miles to a charge then you’re looking at 200k miles. LFP will be 2 - 3x this.
diebeforei485|1 year ago
I know Tesla themselves do it if you buy a pre-owned car from them.
p0w3n3d|1 year ago
unknown|1 year ago
[deleted]
paulddraper|1 year ago
That is the fundamental takeaway.
These are specialized machines, with specialized parts, and specialized repairs.
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And to be fair, this isn't all that much different than other luxury cars like BMWs and Audis.
kllrnohj|1 year ago
It's different in that those have much larger and more readily available 3rd party repair shops, parts, and used parts. You can often shop around and get alternatives. With Tesla you're a lot more locked in.
dgfitz|1 year ago
And by work on I mean I've done the intercooler, downpipe, brakes, rotors, calipers, plugs, injectors, and silly things like airfilters, fluids, etc.
t0mas88|1 year ago
The official diagnostic software from BMW is available for only $2700 per year. Plug it in, click a few buttons and it tells you exactly what is wrong with any BMW, troubleshooting steps, diagrams of the parts and what parts to order etc: https://bmwtechinfo.bmwgroup.com/
If you're not an official shop and don't care about the legalities, the same can be downloaded for $10 at home...
resource_waste|1 year ago
You must watch a LOT of advertising.
I imagine you are fans of Disney and Nintendo too? Maybe throw in some Samsung if you arent too infatuated with Apple.
unknown|1 year ago
[deleted]
fidla|1 year ago
SilentM68|1 year ago
For example, a down payment for a home :)
mrweasel|1 year ago
$30.000 is a lot, I know it's a luxury car, but a new model 3 is still "only" 50.000USD. The discount simply isn't high enough and $30.000 is more than I would want to spend on a new car anyway. I can get a Hyundai i10 for $20.000 which functionally does the exact same thing for me. Sadly it's not electric.
anonymousiam|1 year ago
https://www.investopedia.com/mortgage/insurance
science4sail|1 year ago
sigmoid10|1 year ago
Yeah, that's not going to do it. By, like, an order of magnitude.
SeanAnderson|1 year ago
seventyone|1 year ago
aantix|1 year ago
But FSD 12.3.6 looks amazing.
I'm not sure why Waymo or Mercedes gets ranked ahead of Tesla - clearly, Tesla is a few years ahead of them in terms of self-driving technology.
2OEH8eoCRo0|1 year ago
lnsru|1 year ago
For electric vehicle it is even more important. I would lift the car during test drive in random repair shop, go by myself under it and check the bottom. Battery is most expensive part there. And most fragile too. And also easy to check without special tooling.
I also wouldn’t buy a car with 70000 miles on it. That’s the mileage when things start to fail. It is also out of warranty. Battery might be still under warranty, but that’s not very useful. Tesla solved these issues in the past. Other thing is that these were rental cars. So they were treated extremely poor for years. The buyer of Herz Tesla should be well prepared for all possible expensive surprises.
Edit: I wouldn’t buy a car made after 2005 with 70000+ miles on it. The family cars made before outlived the ones made after 2015. 7 data points at the moment.
Edit2: CAN-Bluetooth dongle with an app isn’t really a tool. Not having it while buying a car for 25k is a gamble. Add also tool for paint thickness measurement. Everything else is naive. Nobody sells very good car for a very good price.
MisterTea|1 year ago
In an ICE sure (and that is even questionable, had a '96 Honda Civic go 300+k) but what wears on an EV aside from batteries? Bearings? There's so much less mechanical crap that an EV should really outlast a gas bunner by decades. Then again all the plastic crap and junk electronics have crippled automobiles.
talldatethrow|1 year ago
To be honest, I really think a newer car will be in the shop sooner than my vehicles will have a hiccup. My friends that buy Audi, BMW, jag, are usually in the shop soon after purchase for something random.
jeffrallen|1 year ago
What on earth are you taking about?
Physical damage to the case, maybe. But physical damage to the cells, no way. Water damage from the cooling system will only be inside. And battery capacity is only visible in the battery management system. Which is only available from CAN with vendor-specific software.
ProfessorLayton|1 year ago
California, the state with the highest EV sales especially for Tesla, mandates that batteries be warrantied for 10y/150k miles. 70k leaves most of the warranty intact.
Grazester|1 year ago