Those warnings are rarely given, and also warning someone that you're about to bomb their home and store and hospital and aid and aid workers, doesn't justify the crime of doing those things.
If all innocent civilians are equal, then it's not acceptable to kill 35,000 Palestinian ones to avenge <2,000 Israeli ones, or even to prevent another <2,000 future Israeli casualties. That math makes no sense from the outside perspective, unless one discriminates based on race, or otherwise believes Israel civilians are somehow more valuable than Palestinian civilians.
As for "sympathizers": someone disagreeing with you doesn't justify exploding them, either.
Note before reading that my following post is NOT a justification of the evil massacre that Hamas perpetrated. It is however a comparison meant to illuminate something about the concept you've noted.
So, food for thought: a lower ratio of civilians to military and security personnel was killed on October 7th (according to Israeli published figures) than tends to be killed in even precision bombings.
Note: I can only fairly say "tends to be killed" because it can be difficult to truly get accurate data on military bombing casualties -- but one can absolutely find many individual cases of dozens of civilians being considered valid collateral for 1-3 military targets.
So notice that these figures are looking between 1.86 and 3.13 civilians per soldier dead.
That means an essentially random massacre which deliberately TRIED to target civilians, but which was primarily performed by individual soldiers, couldn't even cause nearly as many deaths as precision bombings do.
And note that, from what I could gather, those figures on Israeli deaths don't include government workers as being valid combatants, when I doubt any Hamas pencil pushers that may exist would get the "luxury" of not being counted as non combatants.
The can of worms opened up here only gets messier still if you then start going more philosophical issues like how they seem to have spent the last few decades uncertain if Palestine is basically a mini case of Escape From NY, under outright Israeli military occupation, or an entirely independent country. I'd want to ask the Israeli government if this is a war or a policing action.
A minor counterpoint to something you wrote though: I don't think this is often something in terms of their civilians being less valuable, at least not publicly due to the obvious bad optics. I rather think it's a case presented more like a need for some civilians to die now to prevent more from dying later or being "oppressed under illegitimate government" type concerns, etc.
If people who support an immoral attack are military combatants, then clearly we should consider that the vast majority of Israel's population, who support the current genocide, are military combatants.
Of course, this is completely insane logic and I don't believe so at all. Killing a civilian is abhorrent, whether that civilian might support an atrocity or not, as long as they weren't actually involved in it.
> What do you call telling civilians you are coming to allow them to safely leave before a bombing starts? That's taking extreme measures to prevent loss of civilian lives, even at the expense of military goals.
First of all Israel hasn't called civilians in most cases, hence why 10s of thousands of them have been killed in bombings.
Secondly, Israel is not just killing civilians via bombings. It has cut off water and electricity and is causing a famine by preventing aid entering the area. It has destroyed Gaza's health infrastructure completely: countless people with treatable diseases are dying needlessly.
> Any random person on the street is more likely than not a sympathizer that Oct 7 was justified. On Sept 12, 2001 in the US that would be enough to call you an enemy, for sure.
This is a disgusting attempt to try and justify the murder of civilians, and you should feel ashamed.
ImPostingOnHN|1 year ago
If all innocent civilians are equal, then it's not acceptable to kill 35,000 Palestinian ones to avenge <2,000 Israeli ones, or even to prevent another <2,000 future Israeli casualties. That math makes no sense from the outside perspective, unless one discriminates based on race, or otherwise believes Israel civilians are somehow more valuable than Palestinian civilians.
As for "sympathizers": someone disagreeing with you doesn't justify exploding them, either.
monkeyfun|1 year ago
So, food for thought: a lower ratio of civilians to military and security personnel was killed on October 7th (according to Israeli published figures) than tends to be killed in even precision bombings.
Note: I can only fairly say "tends to be killed" because it can be difficult to truly get accurate data on military bombing casualties -- but one can absolutely find many individual cases of dozens of civilians being considered valid collateral for 1-3 military targets.
Source on deaths: https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231215-israel-social... > 695 Israeli civilians, including 36 children, as well as 373 security forces
If we use sources like Times of Israel, which ignores police and other emergency personnel, claims become https://www.timesofisrael.com/14-kids-under-10-25-people-ove... > 859 civilians 274 soldiers
So notice that these figures are looking between 1.86 and 3.13 civilians per soldier dead.
That means an essentially random massacre which deliberately TRIED to target civilians, but which was primarily performed by individual soldiers, couldn't even cause nearly as many deaths as precision bombings do.
And note that, from what I could gather, those figures on Israeli deaths don't include government workers as being valid combatants, when I doubt any Hamas pencil pushers that may exist would get the "luxury" of not being counted as non combatants.
The can of worms opened up here only gets messier still if you then start going more philosophical issues like how they seem to have spent the last few decades uncertain if Palestine is basically a mini case of Escape From NY, under outright Israeli military occupation, or an entirely independent country. I'd want to ask the Israeli government if this is a war or a policing action.
A minor counterpoint to something you wrote though: I don't think this is often something in terms of their civilians being less valuable, at least not publicly due to the obvious bad optics. I rather think it's a case presented more like a need for some civilians to die now to prevent more from dying later or being "oppressed under illegitimate government" type concerns, etc.
dlubarov|1 year ago
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niemandhier|1 year ago
tsimionescu|1 year ago
Of course, this is completely insane logic and I don't believe so at all. Killing a civilian is abhorrent, whether that civilian might support an atrocity or not, as long as they weren't actually involved in it.
candiodari|1 year ago
[deleted]
HL33tibCe7|1 year ago
First of all Israel hasn't called civilians in most cases, hence why 10s of thousands of them have been killed in bombings.
Secondly, Israel is not just killing civilians via bombings. It has cut off water and electricity and is causing a famine by preventing aid entering the area. It has destroyed Gaza's health infrastructure completely: countless people with treatable diseases are dying needlessly.
> Any random person on the street is more likely than not a sympathizer that Oct 7 was justified. On Sept 12, 2001 in the US that would be enough to call you an enemy, for sure.
This is a disgusting attempt to try and justify the murder of civilians, and you should feel ashamed.
unknown|1 year ago
[deleted]