Partially unrelated, but I always post this whenever cannabis is discussed, as a PSA.
Proponents often say that this drug is harmless but in some people it's use can trigger psychiatric illnesses esp. schizophrenia and related disorders. In others it can actually exacerbate anxiety (its somewhat counter intuitive, just like some antidepressants can cause suicidal thoughts). Some people are genetically more predisposed to the effects.
This is a personal topic for me because cannabis (ab)use triggered psychotic episodes in two of my close family members, they had to be hospitalized multiple times (psych ward is no joke) and put on antipsychotics (which are also very hard on you and drain the life out of you). Their actions during the psychotic/manic phase disrupted their family and work lives. Both people were unwilling to cease cannabis use, citing its public acceptability and reasons like "it's legal", "you literally can't overdose on it", "a(n) (internet) doctor prescribed it to me for anxiety so I can use it", "everyone uses it and is fine", "xyz (popular celebrity) uses it". After multiple stints in the psych ward and the threat of government mandated treatments they were finally able to drop cannabis use, it then took them many months to come back to normal functioning.
Thank you. A big factor that excarbates this issue is that the legal cannabis industryha greedily amped up THC potency by an order of magnitude. 5% was typical in the 1990s. Today it's hard to find lower than 20%. And that's just plain flower, whereas many users vape instead which is even more potent and way easier to abuse by using all day at work and school secretly.
Studies and anecdotes agree that higher potency means more symptoms of the sort you discuss and most importantly more addiction and habit forming. So the industry does this on purpose out of greed, and the states have no clue how to stop it.
What do you think would happen if after the 1930s alcohol had been relegalized but suddenly only high proof vodka was available?
Because that is the disaster that has happened with legal weed. We thought we were legalizing the weed we knew and instead they used it as a door to carpet bomb us with ultra high potency products.
We live in the time when there is sharp decline in trust of public institutions and academia.
What is considered 'safe' to use, or 'unsafe' -- is debated at the level of a layman (a person without specialized knowledge in chemistry, biology, immunology, etc).
We cannot all be specialists in human biology, finance, internet security / etc.
And that's being exploited by powerful organizations.
When the above happens, and we feel taken-advantage-of we tend to 'default' to our 'localized' experiences and instincts.
For me, and I am sure many others I do 2 things
a) I trust the NIH positions and articles before 1994 or so, much more than the most recent ones (on the topics that rely on observational statics)
b) I tend to do research on these topic across countries (especially if I can translate, of non-English speaking countries).
Forums like this one, may amplify just one side of the view (recently publish observational stats, English-speaking ).
My suggestion, if I may offer one -- continue to be cautious and use information sources that are 'balanced'.
Weed is not harmless. The question I always ponder is if it's more harmful than X. Alcohol, methamphetamines, etc.
Rescheduling is a start for more research into whether weed is causing these episodes or highlighting other underlying causes.
It seems like your friends arguement that it's legal for continued use is asinine. Plenty of prescription drugs are legal per se but would have adverse effects for some.
Good call, here cannabis damaging effects are usually minimised and hidden under the rug.
And you will always, always find someone telling you “what about alcohol”
> cannabis (ab)use triggered psychotic episodes in two of my close family members, they had to be hospitalized multiple times (psych ward is no joke)
There are additional risks for those experiencing psychotic episodes over and above the obvious as they can fall afoul of other social problems like police brutality.[1] So, if you have a family history of mental illness, but especially a history of psychotic episodes related to cannabis use (!!!), it’s very foolish to use cannabis.
And why does anyone need to fuck with their brain like this without a doctor’s supervision? I get some people have glaucoma or cancer. But that doesn’t require normalizing yet another psychoactive substance. As if we don’t have enough problems with alcohol, tobacco, caffeine, not to mention all the other toxins we’re pumping into our bodies (BPAs, PFAs, microplastics, etc).
Yeah. I know someone who uses cannabis without much issue (for pain management, every day, partaking for years with no significant issues), but I also know someone who had been smoking cannabis for a few months and had one instance trigger a psychotic/schizotypal episode which still hasn't subsided a decade later. They had a family history of schizotypal disorders on both sides. My strong recommendation to anyone with a family or personal history of any sort of schizotypal or psychotic illness is to avoid cannabis as a treatment, because the risk of an extremely debilitating outcome is not worth it. There is the possibility that it's just triggering earlier an illness which would have struck you in your thirties anyway, but A) it can still make it worse and B) triggering an illness that would have happened at 35 when you're 15 or 20 is still losing 15-20 years of health and inflicting a lot of suffering. It's not worth it. Talk to a doctor about other treatment options.
For anxiety something like diazepam might be less risky (more risky for average people, less for those with a history of schizotypal), or a beta-blocker. For pain there aren't many great options. There's opioids, which some people are going to need but which have significant issues with addiction and bowel health. Managed/staged consumption of ibuprofen and paracetamol can help deal with mild to moderate pain if your liver is functioning well and being monitored, but there are some risks with NSAIDs (like ibuprofen) and bowel health that you should be aware of. Non-pharmaceutical interventions like the use of hot packs, massage (be mindful of massage with MAST cell disorders), hot showers etc can all be useful in managing pain.
I presume the uptick I've noticed of "weed is really bad, actually" articles filling my news feed and social media is a response to the imminent classification changes in the US in an attempt to sway public opinion. I can only assume this is being driven by parties with ill intent, who prefer the status quo of using the phrase "I smell weed" to end-run constitutional protections against search and seizure, allowing unequal enforcement of the law, and selling less effective but more expensive treatments for ailments cannabis is known to be effective for.
This is an active topic of conversation in the law enforcement community. The changes and adaptations of not being able to catch criminals using the illegality of weed as probable cause.
Not necessarily a counterpoint but as an HN lurker in Canada I have also been seeing these articles popping up, but, in Canada Cannabis is already essentially completely legal.
You could also interpret this by saying that the legalization of cannabis is allowing researchers to actually study its effects more widely in clinical environments.
If they are indeed finding extra symptom not previously known I think it's something the public should know about.
As far as I can tell, there’s very little one can do for any extended time without creating epigenetic changes. Epigenetic changes are durable changes in gene expression within the cell - we already know that fasting or food deprivation create epigenetic changes, and the mechanism of cell differentiation generally (muscle vs liver cells, say) is epigenetic.
I’m not going to defend long-term high-level cannabis usage - I’ve got eyes - but I’d suspect we’re going to find more things in the “causes epigenetic effects” bucket than not.
My biggest concern with weed is that it stays in your system for a long time, much longer than the actual high. THC is fat soluble, getting stored in the body's fatty tissue, and can slowly enter the blood days after using. This means it can affect you for days. I usually feel off for 24 hours after vaping cannabis.
My other concern for legal states: I think a lot of people using weed are doing it every single day. This is because it gives a relaxing 'weight off your shoulders' feeling at lower doses. At higher doses you get 'faded' and it can be scary. Using daily means the high becomes your new normal, affecting memory and reasoning.
It definitely helps with exercise (much less boring) and sleep for me, but at what cost?
Every story in here, for or against cannabis, basically has no evidence. A lot of stories about people who went nuts when they took weed, but no studies of if the weed caused it or just revealed it. A lot of stereotypes for people who took weed. A lot of people saying weed is scary or perfectly normal.
A lot of stories with no studies or experiments. I hope the rescheduling helps this in the USA.
I will admit that I have a borderline-irrational hatred for weed culture, so consider this a disclosure of biases [1].
Despite the lecture I've gotten from every stoner on this, I've never been convinced by people claiming that weed doesn't have side effects. It always seemed like it would make my friends' personalities frustrating, even when they weren't stoned. A lot of this could just be attributed to the fact that "teenage boys are just kind of insufferable anyway", but it always seemed like weed exacerbated things. [2]
Obviously this isn't a study, just vibes on my end, so it can reasonably be dismissed immediately, but it does seem like my feelings on this stuff is being a little validated.
[1] I still think it should be legal since I think enforcing it is worse than doing it, but I think it'll always make me uncomfortable
[2] I was always terrified of doing any illegal drugs because I was always afraid that drug dealers would cut it with something horrible, so I to this day have never done any drugs that weren't federally legal.
Even if it doesn't have physical side effects, it certainly must have psychological ones.
My pet theory is that people relying on substances to emotionally regulate can neglect to develop the regular skills that everybody who doesn't rely on substances use for emotional regulation. And that's why some 40 year old stoner's will seem to have the emotional maturity levels of teenagers.
As a long-time on-and-off habitual user, yeah, weed has side effects and stoner culture is stupid. At best, the heaviest users experience weed like coffee: without it, they're useless; with it, they're back to baseline.
Isn't that selection bias? Maybe a lot more people have used from an early age and you don't notice them because you are only noticing the ones that look different.
I can generally spot a regular heavy user. The proverbial "burn out". I'm not sure I could say I know how to spot someone who started early, or is an occasional user. What is it that tips you off?
[+] [-] toxicdevil|1 year ago|reply
Proponents often say that this drug is harmless but in some people it's use can trigger psychiatric illnesses esp. schizophrenia and related disorders. In others it can actually exacerbate anxiety (its somewhat counter intuitive, just like some antidepressants can cause suicidal thoughts). Some people are genetically more predisposed to the effects.
This is a personal topic for me because cannabis (ab)use triggered psychotic episodes in two of my close family members, they had to be hospitalized multiple times (psych ward is no joke) and put on antipsychotics (which are also very hard on you and drain the life out of you). Their actions during the psychotic/manic phase disrupted their family and work lives. Both people were unwilling to cease cannabis use, citing its public acceptability and reasons like "it's legal", "you literally can't overdose on it", "a(n) (internet) doctor prescribed it to me for anxiety so I can use it", "everyone uses it and is fine", "xyz (popular celebrity) uses it". After multiple stints in the psych ward and the threat of government mandated treatments they were finally able to drop cannabis use, it then took them many months to come back to normal functioning.
[+] [-] galdosdi|1 year ago|reply
Studies and anecdotes agree that higher potency means more symptoms of the sort you discuss and most importantly more addiction and habit forming. So the industry does this on purpose out of greed, and the states have no clue how to stop it.
What do you think would happen if after the 1930s alcohol had been relegalized but suddenly only high proof vodka was available?
Because that is the disaster that has happened with legal weed. We thought we were legalizing the weed we knew and instead they used it as a door to carpet bomb us with ultra high potency products.
The cause of this fiasco is again, greed.
[+] [-] Beijinger|1 year ago|reply
Not a big fan of cannabis. But, did Cannabis trigger a psychosis or are psychotic people more likely to smoke cannabis?
Why do patients with schizophrenia smoke? [Cigarettes, not dope] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20051860/
[+] [-] maga_2020|1 year ago|reply
What is considered 'safe' to use, or 'unsafe' -- is debated at the level of a layman (a person without specialized knowledge in chemistry, biology, immunology, etc).
We cannot all be specialists in human biology, finance, internet security / etc. And that's being exploited by powerful organizations.
When the above happens, and we feel taken-advantage-of we tend to 'default' to our 'localized' experiences and instincts.
For me, and I am sure many others I do 2 things
a) I trust the NIH positions and articles before 1994 or so, much more than the most recent ones (on the topics that rely on observational statics)
b) I tend to do research on these topic across countries (especially if I can translate, of non-English speaking countries).
Forums like this one, may amplify just one side of the view (recently publish observational stats, English-speaking ).
My suggestion, if I may offer one -- continue to be cautious and use information sources that are 'balanced'.
[+] [-] ragestorm|1 year ago|reply
Rescheduling is a start for more research into whether weed is causing these episodes or highlighting other underlying causes.
It seems like your friends arguement that it's legal for continued use is asinine. Plenty of prescription drugs are legal per se but would have adverse effects for some.
[+] [-] tigershark|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] hnthrowaway0328|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] nyokodo|1 year ago|reply
There are additional risks for those experiencing psychotic episodes over and above the obvious as they can fall afoul of other social problems like police brutality.[1] So, if you have a family history of mental illness, but especially a history of psychotic episodes related to cannabis use (!!!), it’s very foolish to use cannabis.
1. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna149646
[+] [-] rayiner|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] lucubratory|1 year ago|reply
For anxiety something like diazepam might be less risky (more risky for average people, less for those with a history of schizotypal), or a beta-blocker. For pain there aren't many great options. There's opioids, which some people are going to need but which have significant issues with addiction and bowel health. Managed/staged consumption of ibuprofen and paracetamol can help deal with mild to moderate pain if your liver is functioning well and being monitored, but there are some risks with NSAIDs (like ibuprofen) and bowel health that you should be aware of. Non-pharmaceutical interventions like the use of hot packs, massage (be mindful of massage with MAST cell disorders), hot showers etc can all be useful in managing pain.
[+] [-] apwell23|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] holeymoley|1 year ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] aarmenaa|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] datavirtue|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] 3vidence|1 year ago|reply
You could also interpret this by saying that the legalization of cannabis is allowing researchers to actually study its effects more widely in clinical environments.
If they are indeed finding extra symptom not previously known I think it's something the public should know about.
[+] [-] tbrownaw|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] roughly|1 year ago|reply
I’m not going to defend long-term high-level cannabis usage - I’ve got eyes - but I’d suspect we’re going to find more things in the “causes epigenetic effects” bucket than not.
[+] [-] puffybuf|1 year ago|reply
My other concern for legal states: I think a lot of people using weed are doing it every single day. This is because it gives a relaxing 'weight off your shoulders' feeling at lower doses. At higher doses you get 'faded' and it can be scary. Using daily means the high becomes your new normal, affecting memory and reasoning.
It definitely helps with exercise (much less boring) and sleep for me, but at what cost?
[+] [-] grubbs|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] ok_dad|1 year ago|reply
A lot of stories with no studies or experiments. I hope the rescheduling helps this in the USA.
[+] [-] LeroyRaz|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] wfhBrian|1 year ago|reply
If you don't get that, then you don't understand epigenetics
My impression of this thread is "I don't know the difference between genetics and epigenetics, so here is my opinion on weed..."
The only reason I know the difference is because I used to use the gym at the same time as an epigeneticist.
In short, all genes can be flipped on/off based on their environment.
And reading HN does impact the environment in which your genes live
[+] [-] stevenAthompson|1 year ago|reply
I feel like we may not fully understand what these changes really signify.
[+] [-] veunes|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] lotophage|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] tombert|1 year ago|reply
Despite the lecture I've gotten from every stoner on this, I've never been convinced by people claiming that weed doesn't have side effects. It always seemed like it would make my friends' personalities frustrating, even when they weren't stoned. A lot of this could just be attributed to the fact that "teenage boys are just kind of insufferable anyway", but it always seemed like weed exacerbated things. [2]
Obviously this isn't a study, just vibes on my end, so it can reasonably be dismissed immediately, but it does seem like my feelings on this stuff is being a little validated.
[1] I still think it should be legal since I think enforcing it is worse than doing it, but I think it'll always make me uncomfortable
[2] I was always terrified of doing any illegal drugs because I was always afraid that drug dealers would cut it with something horrible, so I to this day have never done any drugs that weren't federally legal.
[+] [-] ludston|1 year ago|reply
My pet theory is that people relying on substances to emotionally regulate can neglect to develop the regular skills that everybody who doesn't rely on substances use for emotional regulation. And that's why some 40 year old stoner's will seem to have the emotional maturity levels of teenagers.
[+] [-] klyrs|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] Slava_Propanei|1 year ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] dangsquare|1 year ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] dotps1|1 year ago|reply
Does it really matter if they know it's drugs or not?
[+] [-] swayvil|1 year ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] hansonkd|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] passwordle|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] seneca|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] suroot|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] jaylittle|1 year ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] orionsbelt|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] aYsY4dDQ2NrcNzA|1 year ago|reply
Well okay then.
[+] [-] dang|1 year ago|reply
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html