[DelaneyM]

I live in a country which has no local auto industry to protect and can import vehicles from nearly anywhere.

I can confidently say that China has won. There’s just no comparison, and this isn’t just about prices. I’m not even talking about EVs (though this goes double for them.)

Maybe they got to this point through government subsidies and are dumping, I don’t know enough to say. But they’re the best, and cheapest, cars by a long shot.

[cjbgkagh]

I keep trying to tell people this, the quality coming out of China keeps getting better and this is generally how things go. Japan was cheap crap, then became quality. Korea as well. It's pretty standard practice and should have been expected.

For my inputs the same goods at the same quality from China are less than half the price than from elsewhere. That is an absolutely huge difference - and those margins often makes the difference between a viable venture and an unviable venture.

Now there is Temu, Alibaba, Bangood, Vevor, etc. There is a local hardware store that only sells one brand from China but that brand has everything, super cheap, and really decent quality. Western companies were making a lot of money selling us cheap Chinese goods at large markups but now those companies are able to sell to us directly and the consumers can keep that surplus. If everything ends up both made in China and sold by China with Chinese brands what role does that leave the rest of us. I used to argue that the west was good at quality control with reliable and fair laws but those are rapidly fading away. Without that we only have finalization and real estate left, and how do we keep that ponzi scheme going without something fundamental and concrete to base it on.

[rented_mule]

I agree, and want to reiterate from slightly different angles.

It drives me crazy to hear people say, "Is that made in China? Because I won't buy cheap Chinese crap!" Are they happy to buy "crap" from elsewhere? The implied causation between Chinese and "crap" is just not there. There has historically been a correlation, but so many people have made the leap to causation in their heads.

The vast majority of Apple's products have been made in China over the last couple of decades. It's easy to question some of Apple's design trade-offs (e.g., gluing batteries in to make things a fraction of a mm thinner), but those tradeoffs are part of the "designed in Cupertino" that is stamped on their products. The fit and finish is much harder to question, and that is done by Chinese hands. It's excellent because Apple, and Apple's customers, are willing to pay for that.

Chinese manufacturers have proven they are excellent at building to whatever price / quality tradeoff their customers demand. For goods sold in the US, it's US companies and/or US consumers setting the price / quality tradeoff.

To the extent there is a correlation, it comes from China being able to build to the cheaper, and therefore crappier, standards that consumers want. When China loses that edge (as Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan did before them), they will move further upmarket and others will step in to fill that market need (Vietnam? India? Various African countries?). This cycle keeps repeating... one of the funnest parts of watching "Back to the Future" today is that the line "all the best stuff is made in Japan" went from sounding so unlikely in the 1980s to prescient in the 21st century. And that line makes no sense to young people, whose experience is that the "best stuff" has always been made in Japan.

[throwawaymaths]

Are we living in the same universe? Byd is the car company that has had 10 showrooms catch fire. Temu was caught selling children's jewelry with 10x the acceptable level of lead.

Foreign manufacturers are laying off like crazy in China.

Sure, Chinese quality may be getting better but it's a race. Will the quality improve before demographic collapse and over leveraging destroys the economy? And beyond that horizon, is recovery even possible given how much toxic material china dumps into it's own environment, impacting cancer and fertility rates?

[thaumasiotes]

> If everything ends up both made in China and sold by China with Chinese brands what role does that leave the rest of us.

No need to speculate; that's not a thing that can happen.

Gains from trade still occur when one party is superior to the other party at everything.

Not to mention that if you're not producing anything to give to China, you won't be able to buy any of the things they sell.

[beezlebroxxxxxx]

> the best, and cheapest, cars by a long shot

NA hasn't produced the best or cheapest cars for decades at this point. Auto manufacturing has been an extension of geopolitics for decades --- most of the time the cars we can buy are the cars we can buy because the government and trading partners made it that way, rather than some actual survival of the fittest, battle royale, last man standing exercise.

[UniverseHacker]

In what way are they the best? Are you saying the engineering, quality, and workmanship is at or above even high end German cars?

[ne0flex]

I find that German cars have really dropped in quality. My dad changes car leases every 2 -3 years. Over the past decade, he's driven Lexus, Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Genesis. They were all brand new when he got them. He's only ever had problems with the German brands. His BMW crapped out twice, once on the highway and once while waiting at a light. My brother bought a BMW and he's constantly having to take it to the shop for repairs because something keeps dying. Over the past 5 years, my other friends that drive German cars usually always have issues. Meanwhile, my friends that drive Japanese or Korean brands seldom have to take them in aside for regular maintenance purposes.

[whatever1]

Apart from the engines (specially high performance and the diesel ones - forgetting the emissions scandal), and brand German cars do not have any real competitive edge. If you are willing to pay the price tag you can find craftsmanship, driving dynamics, safety, reliability elsewhere.

In an EV world where software and electronic quirks are the main demand drivers (ev power trains cannot offer differentiation), Chinese are very well positioned to take over the lead.

[MisterTea]

> Are you saying the engineering, quality, and workmanship is at or above even high end German cars?

Not the OP but I will bet you my boring Honda will outlast your high end luxury German any day of the week.

[newsclues]

Value.

[nashashmi]

China is a great place to start your journey in e-car making. Less regulations. Cheap materials. More fun with inventions. Lots of trials. Lots of low cost errors.

Also bad publicity for established companies.

[throwup238]

And a huge domestic market to amortize their development costs across with a middle class that is still growing instead of shrinking.

[golergka]

What's your experience with Chinese cars long term? I've heard that they look really shiny in the dealership but are a nightmare in the long run.

[throwawaymaths]

Sometimes they look burnt to a crisp in the dealership.

https://www.carscoops.com/2024/05/byd-reportedly-sees-10th-s...

[tashoecraft]

Even if that is the case today, how long will it stay like that, and how much will it increase the cost to get it too comparable quality? It's only going to get better, and likely it'll get better faster than other manufacturers can get their products cheaper to compete.

[s1artibartfast]

Isn't that kind of like Belgium declaring the outcome of WWII?

I suppose it mostly comes down to what you think winning mean and the long term outcome will be.

[TheLoafOfBread]

Are aftermarket services (parts, service) available or are those throwaway cars? It might be looking good now, but in few years it could be a nightmare to keep the car running.

[danaris]

I guess my question (genuine question, I do not know much about this topic) is whether the safety features in Chinese cars are on par with those from American and Japanese car companies.

Are they "better" only in ways that are immediately obvious, but "cheaper" because they cut corners on the stuff you don't notice until it's too late?

Or are they genuinely doing a better job even comparing apples to apples with other cars?

[randerson]

Given that the US allows the Cybertruck and certain pickups to be sold, with complete disregard for pedestrian safety, I'd rather question whether Chinese cars are up to European standards.

[kieranmaine]

Take a look at the Euro NCAP safety ratings - https://www.euroncap.com/en/ratings-rewards/latest-safety-ra...

For 2023 there are a number of Chinese models in the top 10.

[mprev]

In what way best?