Had an epiphany like this after an earlier startup project failed, which my cofounder and I had tried to do following the formulaic approaches advocated by various accelerators, investors, and experts (often people with zero experience running a startup, but had been involved as angels after BigCo stock options vested, and then got into mentoring local accelerators).
I hated the startup theater, pitching, networking, and accelerator applications including YC and TechStars and MassChallenge. My cofounder flaked. I wound down business #1, returned most of the investor capital, and then started out on #2, determined to do things completely differently.
For #2, I had 3 criteria:
1) Prototype on my own, without an engineer
2) Don't just talk lean, do lean
3) The product must generate revenue from day 1
While I am not an engineer, I had strong enough digital skills to set up websites and leverage other tools to prototype. Month 1 was building the prototype, month 2 was getting it out to the marketplace and actually getting some early sales ... and then plowing that money back into the business to improve the product. 10+ years later, the business brings in a respectable middle class income, has helped put my kids through college, and, as TFA articulated, lets me "pursue any and all ludicrous business models, with no oversight."
Like a lot of people who bootstrap, I had to consult as well (still do, mainly as a hedge against platform risk). I am eternally grateful to my spouse who not only has an income to help support the family, but also good health insurance (more on this below, see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40707068).
The career accelerator people kill me. Honestly why do I want to hear from someone who's biggest risk was getting a job talking to people taking big risks.
I have a similar startup backstory to this, for my second venture I went fully to the get paid to do your work camp. It's still hard, harder than anything I've ever done, but it's working out.
I'm always amazed how blatantly clear it is that having health insurance tied to employment specifically discourages this kind of entrepreneurship, and the ability to "strike out on your own".
Would love to know more about how you did step 1. What tools would you use or would you use today if you were in a similar position.
Any chance you can share? I don't have a particular project I need to pay a consultant for right now, but I'd be honest: if you wrote a book, I'd buy it and put it right on the top of my reading list.
> I didn’t raise any money for these projects. I funded them with my 9-5 salary. Solo. And the reason for that was simple – why on earth would I vehemently abandon boneheaded micro-managing layoff kings in the 9-5 world only to raise money & adopt a board of boneheaded micro-managing layoff kings in the startup world. If I’m gonna build, I’m gonna have free-rein decision making to pursue any and all ludicrous business models, with no oversight. If I fail, fine. That’s on me. If it works, son-of-a-gun, my job will feel like play.
I respect this. It's something I've wrestled with a lot over the past ~year (especially in the last 6 months). You can see my relevant "Ask HN: How would you raise $600k for a boring software co?"[0] in which I shared my musings around this with the community. I'm currently contracting because I have to pay some unexpected medical bills but I am hopeful I will explore solopreneurship more this year (I'd much rather not go it alone tho, as stated in the thread).
I'm very lucky to have had multiple interactions with folks in that thread as well as having contacts that have raised funds and sold businesses... the advice is a resounding "not really doable" outside of a friends & family fundraise.
All of this to say, I admire Peter (have read his writings previously) and I share the same feelings quoted above although I am still willing to entertain outside investors (and all that comes with that) for the chance to have agency in executing a software business with less "lose my house" risk. For the same reason I would also take a leadership position at a startup. I've seen the effects of bad management and lack of empathy first hand and I know I could make a difference and have a positive impact on the internal culture of software development shops... But I don't get many bites when I go fishing for that.
I respect the part of diving in to build something on your own.
I don't respect what he actually built. Leeching off others' work and while doing it blasting out ads which ended up being the first wave of making browsing unpleasant in the early 2000s. Without any actual contributions.
And that then paired with "I didn't know how to code, and I hated reading." It's this attitude that software engineering is somehow what you do after having watched a fews youtube videos and discovered stackoverflow. My aunt still thinks that. Thanks for perpetuating that myth.
Your thread is 9 months old. Do you have a product and a bit of traction?
I was in a similar place to you back in 2019. Via side gigs I built a product that served a niche. Eventually, raised 180k with TinySeed (specialized in boostrapping B2B SaaS). Best move ever. Gave me and my cofounder a runway to find product market fit. We're now 8 full time at Activity Messenger and doubling year over year.
Have a listen to the podcast Startups for the rest of us. All about bootstrapping. Get inspired and start building.
FWIW… look at the portfolio pages of lots of VCs. They’re absolutely filthy with boring companies with boring products that obviously have absolutely no prayer whatsoever of being a “venture scale” business. Despite that fact, they managed to get multiple investors to put in Millions in capital. How?
They bullshitted the right sounding bullshit to a specific audience who absolutely laps up particular flavors of bullshit. Sometimes the flavor changes (e.g. DevOps, enterprise SaaS, crypto, AI), but they’re always hungry.
You of course don’t have to raise money if you don’t want to, but I’m sure you could do it too for damn near any idea you come up with as long as you also figure out how to relieve yourself of any sense of self-respect and prostrate yourself in front of the altar of VC buzzworthiness and tomes of fortune cookie wisdom.
I can relate to this, though I came into it already knowing how to do the coding part. I had no idea how to do the rest of it.
My entire career was spent building valuable software for companies to generate large profits only for me to be laid off (and fired, once). After the firing I was quite angry and probably a bit arrogant.
I went on a bit of a rage.. "I built the most successful product there, I can do it on my own."
So that's what I did and I haven't worked for anyone else since (on 8 years now).
I'm right at your starting point. Can basically build anything but committing to an idea is the sticking point. What product would you want to start with today?
View page source is, as was mentioned in the article, magical. The fact that by publishing something online you make it available for everyone else to learn from is astonishing.
It used to be knowledge was locked up in books and putting them in libraries for free access was revolutionary, but libraries don't compare to the knowledge transfer benefits of view source in terms of cost and ease. (Obv libraries have a wider base of knowledge to distribute.)
Even today, with all the obfuscation and minification, devtools offers a lot of the same benefits as "view source" did.
I've often heard the narrative from hiring managers over the years that a prospect who's been laid off probably doesn't make a good hire, especially if they've been laid off multiple times.
In this wonderfully written and inspiring piece, perhaps we should consider that the real issue isn't the individual's capability but rather that their potential has been misdirected or they haven't been in environments that recognize and cultivate their unique skills.
> especially if they've been laid off multiple times.
Every fantastic senior dev I have worked with has been laid off several times. Our industry is not immune to companies failing. You shouldn't discount people just because they've been laid off.
Your post reminded me of some thoughts I've had about a similar topic over the last few years.
I'm a scientist, and I've often thought about how the work I and others would do would be different in different funding environments. That's the same idea of people's "potential [being] misdirected" that you are talking about. People often chase the newest shiny things and follow the money for both hiring and funding, but that isn't always good for both the people themselves and for innovation as a whole. We need to make it possible for people to develop their talents and skills, whatever they are and even if they don't match the current needs or desires of the environment, so they we have experts and experienced folks when the time comes for those innovations and technologies. It's the same idea as diversification in investing, with more agility and resilience gained from a diversity of skills and experience. I hope more funding managers and hiring managers realize the value of fostering people's potentials rather than focusing myopically on supposed current needs.
"often heard the narrative from hiring managers over the years that a prospect who's been laid off probably doesn't make a good hire"
While i'm unsurprised to hear that such a sociopathic and non-scientific narrative exists from hiring managers, I'm curious how they find out whether a departure was a layoff. For big companies, sure, you can probably tell that if someone left various tech darlings in late 2022 that it was probably a layoff. But like outside of that, how the heck do you know? Are you googling "$coname layoffs $year" for every entry on a resume you're screening or something? Or are you literally just asking them "tell me why you left each job" and people are for some reason answering honestly?
This just seems really hard to actually pin down unless employees are volunteering the information. Even if you did leave right on a publicly-known layoff date, it seems pretty easy to just explain that "uh yeah they were doing so poorly they laid off X% of people, I left for greener pastures". Or that general sentiment but passed through 1 or 2 layers of word-smithing.
> I can’t trust them anymore; I gotta figure out a way to generate revenue myself; from my own business; that I control. Online preferably.
This was it for me. Pouring your whole self into your work, only to be laid off, fired, or skipped for promotion is soul shattering.
$400k ARR solo. I'll never work for anyone again, I'll never feel compelled to be a yes man again, I'll never fake a smile for a drooling idiot of a C*O again.
I love the name 'unplanned entrepreneurship'. After a year of not being able to find decent work, I decided I might as well build something of mine, and slowly grow it to profitability. Which I did, and it's still not profitable, so I have to try the job market lottery again—which has killed a lot of motivation and momentum, but I'm back at it for the long haul now.
As you are an expert in SEO, and I'm building a SEO-adjacent product, I would love to pick your brain. Email in the profile.
thank you sph... it took me a while to cobble together a title that made sense.. and I'm far from an seo expert.. I learned the basics and sortof winged it from there.. ping me on twitter.. I hang out there usually..
During the interview at the last place I worked, the owner described starting the company (20+ years earlier) because he got tired of being laid off. Figured that the risk of his new venture failing was probably on par with getting a job and being laid off again, so why not go for it?
For me, I found out that us “olds” are not exactly loved (actively hated, more like), and gave up looking for work, after being laid off from one of the top imaging corporations in the world.
Pissed me off, something fierce, being treated that way (especially as I figured out it was being supported from the C-Suite). However, I have since realized that it was probably the best thing that ever happened to me.
I enjoy writing software. So much, that I will do it for free.
When no one’s paying me, I get to do it the way that I want to do it. No scrum standup humiliation sessions, no deliberately writing terrible software, so terrible programmers can understand it, no being told how lucky I am, to be “allowed” to work.
What is sad is that "olds" in software engineering means 10-15+ years of experience. I started in this career at 19, and around my early 30s I found myself at the apex of my experience, mental sharpness and talent, while pretty much any company finds me too experienced, too expensive and perhaps too hard to train and mould into shape.
Basically, after 10 years, you have three choices: become a consultant (I hope you like being a salesman), become an entrepreneur (I hope you have a good idea and a lot of savings) or get into management (I hope you love herding cats and playing politics)
I quit a company that was showing all the signs of trying to get rid of its senior developers so a couple of us jumped ship before the inevitable layoff. I went straight into another place that the recruiter said "preferred to hire more seasoned engineers." In my 5 years there I only remember two engineers that were under 30. Median age probably hovered around 50.
There are outfits that realize that you get better with experience and want to capitalize on that. Unfortunately, they seem to be few and far between.
Were there other sites between AppalachianTrail.com and DudeRanch.com? Seems like a big jump from $3k to $17k, for something that, in my opinion, doesn't seem like a sure winner worth 5x the first one.
I sold AT for $30k, and primarily used the proceeds from that to acquire DR.. I was still working 9-5 then also, so I was prepared to spend upwards of $50k to acquire DR (as that industry seemed like a good fit for me) (author here, fyi)
Appreciate the post. Was in a similar situation myself - always wanted to be an "entrepreneur" but ultimately, needing to survive to feed the family is what kickstarted it all. I really appreciated how, even though you didn't have a technical background, you found a path that works for you and even more so, focusing on what you CAN do vs what you CAN'T do. And sometimes, you do get hosed on a deal at the start before you establish trust and credibility and then eventually learning your way around the trade.
Like many things with the internet, it seems like if you got in at the ground floor you could do something like this. Now everything on the internet is cordoned off in centralized spaces, and there's a million businesses and random guys trying to figure out any and every possible angle to monetize overlooked markets. No way I can convince businesses to pay me for ads when they can be paying Facebook or YouTube who own practically every eyeball on the internet.
What a beautiful piece of writing, which hits close to home for me, as I've always kind of managed side projects and my full-time jobs during office hours.
Going on a slight tangent with unplanned entrepreneurship, the Korean PC cafes had their roots in their owners being laid off from their corporate jobs.
Peter, if you read this comment I suggest that you start writing a book immediately, if one's not in the works: your simple but thoughtful writing style is awesome and makes the deep insights you provide even more delightful. I, for one, plunk down money to read 200 pages of this stuff interested with anecdotes from personal life.
What are the insights I gained from this particular piece:
* self depreciation is funny if done in earnest
* note that the OP had a huge handicap (not knowing to code and ignorant of web technologies) but he was not clueless: he had deep knowledge (at least deeper than most site operators) about the ad business and how to monetize
* building up from the above, he innovated in an area what he knew, i.e. ads. He didn't try to jump into the idea de jour. Too many first time entrepreneurs miss this point.
* he used simple tools and approaches(e.g. Yellow Pages, source view) but used them effectively. Didn't try to go after shiny tools, e.g. get on a bootcamp to learn web frontend development
Overall vibe (don't know if it's a persona or the real thing, judging from the wackiness of his ideas I'm guessing the latter) from his writings is a person who you'd want to grab coffee (or beer) and just hang out with.
thanks Jun8... writing these small essays is taxing (but rewarding) - I can't imagine what it's like to write a book (unlikely). If I ever do, it'll be similar to how Derek Sivers writes (short chapters)... no persona here, though.. just someone who's been laid off a lot, and channels William Faulkner style of writing..and also, hard to write a book when I've got onions to ship!! : ) (peter here)
That is an inspiring read. I almost went down this path when I got laid off last. I still somewhat regret taking up a corporate job back then instead of focusing on something else. But then, I probably wasn't ready. Thanks for writing this Peter.
This line in the article sums up beautifully the desire for being an entrepreneur: "A path to avoid someone else’s bonehead business decision which kneecaps a company and executes my career."
[+] [-] ilamont|1 year ago|reply
I hated the startup theater, pitching, networking, and accelerator applications including YC and TechStars and MassChallenge. My cofounder flaked. I wound down business #1, returned most of the investor capital, and then started out on #2, determined to do things completely differently.
For #2, I had 3 criteria:
1) Prototype on my own, without an engineer
2) Don't just talk lean, do lean
3) The product must generate revenue from day 1
While I am not an engineer, I had strong enough digital skills to set up websites and leverage other tools to prototype. Month 1 was building the prototype, month 2 was getting it out to the marketplace and actually getting some early sales ... and then plowing that money back into the business to improve the product. 10+ years later, the business brings in a respectable middle class income, has helped put my kids through college, and, as TFA articulated, lets me "pursue any and all ludicrous business models, with no oversight."
Like a lot of people who bootstrap, I had to consult as well (still do, mainly as a hedge against platform risk). I am eternally grateful to my spouse who not only has an income to help support the family, but also good health insurance (more on this below, see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40707068).
[+] [-] aunty_helen|1 year ago|reply
I have a similar startup backstory to this, for my second venture I went fully to the get paid to do your work camp. It's still hard, harder than anything I've ever done, but it's working out.
[+] [-] octopoc|1 year ago|reply
You must have picked out your:
- Payment provider (e.g. Stripe)
- Authorization server (e.g. Auth0)
- Backend language and framework
- Frontend language and framework
- CMS for your website (e.g. Wordpress)
What else is there in your list of things you had to pick when starting a project? I'm very curious.
[+] [-] grecy|1 year ago|reply
I'm always amazed how blatantly clear it is that having health insurance tied to employment specifically discourages this kind of entrepreneurship, and the ability to "strike out on your own".
Literally handcuffs keeping people at their jobs.
[+] [-] AbstractH24|1 year ago|reply
Any chance you can share? I don't have a particular project I need to pay a consultant for right now, but I'd be honest: if you wrote a book, I'd buy it and put it right on the top of my reading list.
[+] [-] leetrout|1 year ago|reply
I respect this. It's something I've wrestled with a lot over the past ~year (especially in the last 6 months). You can see my relevant "Ask HN: How would you raise $600k for a boring software co?"[0] in which I shared my musings around this with the community. I'm currently contracting because I have to pay some unexpected medical bills but I am hopeful I will explore solopreneurship more this year (I'd much rather not go it alone tho, as stated in the thread).
I'm very lucky to have had multiple interactions with folks in that thread as well as having contacts that have raised funds and sold businesses... the advice is a resounding "not really doable" outside of a friends & family fundraise.
All of this to say, I admire Peter (have read his writings previously) and I share the same feelings quoted above although I am still willing to entertain outside investors (and all that comes with that) for the chance to have agency in executing a software business with less "lose my house" risk. For the same reason I would also take a leadership position at a startup. I've seen the effects of bad management and lack of empathy first hand and I know I could make a difference and have a positive impact on the internal culture of software development shops... But I don't get many bites when I go fishing for that.
[0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37346497
[+] [-] tredigi|1 year ago|reply
I don't respect what he actually built. Leeching off others' work and while doing it blasting out ads which ended up being the first wave of making browsing unpleasant in the early 2000s. Without any actual contributions.
And that then paired with "I didn't know how to code, and I hated reading." It's this attitude that software engineering is somehow what you do after having watched a fews youtube videos and discovered stackoverflow. My aunt still thinks that. Thanks for perpetuating that myth.
[+] [-] martin_drapeau|1 year ago|reply
Have a listen to the podcast Startups for the rest of us. All about bootstrapping. Get inspired and start building.
[+] [-] throwaway42668|1 year ago|reply
They bullshitted the right sounding bullshit to a specific audience who absolutely laps up particular flavors of bullshit. Sometimes the flavor changes (e.g. DevOps, enterprise SaaS, crypto, AI), but they’re always hungry.
You of course don’t have to raise money if you don’t want to, but I’m sure you could do it too for damn near any idea you come up with as long as you also figure out how to relieve yourself of any sense of self-respect and prostrate yourself in front of the altar of VC buzzworthiness and tomes of fortune cookie wisdom.
[+] [-] eightturn|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|1 year ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] llmblockchain|1 year ago|reply
My entire career was spent building valuable software for companies to generate large profits only for me to be laid off (and fired, once). After the firing I was quite angry and probably a bit arrogant.
I went on a bit of a rage.. "I built the most successful product there, I can do it on my own."
So that's what I did and I haven't worked for anyone else since (on 8 years now).
[+] [-] Fin_Code|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] mraza007|1 year ago|reply
If you don’t mind can you share what have you built
[+] [-] mooreds|1 year ago|reply
It used to be knowledge was locked up in books and putting them in libraries for free access was revolutionary, but libraries don't compare to the knowledge transfer benefits of view source in terms of cost and ease. (Obv libraries have a wider base of knowledge to distribute.)
Even today, with all the obfuscation and minification, devtools offers a lot of the same benefits as "view source" did.
[+] [-] eightturn|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] dkobia|1 year ago|reply
In this wonderfully written and inspiring piece, perhaps we should consider that the real issue isn't the individual's capability but rather that their potential has been misdirected or they haven't been in environments that recognize and cultivate their unique skills.
[+] [-] giancarlostoro|1 year ago|reply
Every fantastic senior dev I have worked with has been laid off several times. Our industry is not immune to companies failing. You shouldn't discount people just because they've been laid off.
[+] [-] atrettel|1 year ago|reply
I'm a scientist, and I've often thought about how the work I and others would do would be different in different funding environments. That's the same idea of people's "potential [being] misdirected" that you are talking about. People often chase the newest shiny things and follow the money for both hiring and funding, but that isn't always good for both the people themselves and for innovation as a whole. We need to make it possible for people to develop their talents and skills, whatever they are and even if they don't match the current needs or desires of the environment, so they we have experts and experienced folks when the time comes for those innovations and technologies. It's the same idea as diversification in investing, with more agility and resilience gained from a diversity of skills and experience. I hope more funding managers and hiring managers realize the value of fostering people's potentials rather than focusing myopically on supposed current needs.
[+] [-] mrsilencedogood|1 year ago|reply
While i'm unsurprised to hear that such a sociopathic and non-scientific narrative exists from hiring managers, I'm curious how they find out whether a departure was a layoff. For big companies, sure, you can probably tell that if someone left various tech darlings in late 2022 that it was probably a layoff. But like outside of that, how the heck do you know? Are you googling "$coname layoffs $year" for every entry on a resume you're screening or something? Or are you literally just asking them "tell me why you left each job" and people are for some reason answering honestly?
This just seems really hard to actually pin down unless employees are volunteering the information. Even if you did leave right on a publicly-known layoff date, it seems pretty easy to just explain that "uh yeah they were doing so poorly they laid off X% of people, I left for greener pastures". Or that general sentiment but passed through 1 or 2 layers of word-smithing.
[+] [-] thr0w|1 year ago|reply
This was it for me. Pouring your whole self into your work, only to be laid off, fired, or skipped for promotion is soul shattering.
$400k ARR solo. I'll never work for anyone again, I'll never feel compelled to be a yes man again, I'll never fake a smile for a drooling idiot of a C*O again.
[+] [-] deadbabe|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] sph|1 year ago|reply
As you are an expert in SEO, and I'm building a SEO-adjacent product, I would love to pick your brain. Email in the profile.
[+] [-] eightturn|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] HeyLaughingBoy|1 year ago|reply
Can't really argue with that :-)
[+] [-] akskakskaksk|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] senkora|1 year ago|reply
https://www.deepsouthventures.com/i-sell-onions-on-the-inter...
[+] [-] eightturn|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] ChrisMarshallNY|1 year ago|reply
Pissed me off, something fierce, being treated that way (especially as I figured out it was being supported from the C-Suite). However, I have since realized that it was probably the best thing that ever happened to me.
I enjoy writing software. So much, that I will do it for free.
When no one’s paying me, I get to do it the way that I want to do it. No scrum standup humiliation sessions, no deliberately writing terrible software, so terrible programmers can understand it, no being told how lucky I am, to be “allowed” to work.
[+] [-] sph|1 year ago|reply
Basically, after 10 years, you have three choices: become a consultant (I hope you like being a salesman), become an entrepreneur (I hope you have a good idea and a lot of savings) or get into management (I hope you love herding cats and playing politics)
[+] [-] HeyLaughingBoy|1 year ago|reply
There are outfits that realize that you get better with experience and want to capitalize on that. Unfortunately, they seem to be few and far between.
[+] [-] wumbo|1 year ago|reply
We have a DevRel engineer specifically working to get technical debt tickets into sprints.
So you get to refactor! Oh gee!
[+] [-] SebFender|1 year ago|reply
Let's not blame anyone and just admit that for many "... maybe it's just not for me."
I find too many people blame themselves or others instead of just changing angles in life.
This is a perfect example.
[+] [-] giarc|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] eightturn|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] jebarker|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] ensemblehq|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] hbn|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] bornfreddy|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] dsco|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] eightturn|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] chaostheory|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] Jun8|1 year ago|reply
What are the insights I gained from this particular piece:
* self depreciation is funny if done in earnest
* note that the OP had a huge handicap (not knowing to code and ignorant of web technologies) but he was not clueless: he had deep knowledge (at least deeper than most site operators) about the ad business and how to monetize
* building up from the above, he innovated in an area what he knew, i.e. ads. He didn't try to jump into the idea de jour. Too many first time entrepreneurs miss this point.
* he used simple tools and approaches(e.g. Yellow Pages, source view) but used them effectively. Didn't try to go after shiny tools, e.g. get on a bootcamp to learn web frontend development
Overall vibe (don't know if it's a persona or the real thing, judging from the wackiness of his ideas I'm guessing the latter) from his writings is a person who you'd want to grab coffee (or beer) and just hang out with.
[+] [-] eightturn|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] darkstar_16|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] eightturn|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] jnord|1 year ago|reply