[omh]

This debate seems to conflate two or three different issues.

1. Use of phones in classrooms 2. Having phones present in schools, but unused 3. The impact of social media on schoolchildren

(1) is undeniably bad and should be banned everywhere.

(2) raises some issues. I don't want (1) but I would like my child to have a phone for the journey to and from school. And a smartphone is much better at this than a dumb phone (group chats are really good!)

(3) is a concern but it seems almost totally unrelated to the other issues. The children who are banned from having a phone at school will use the same social media when they're at home and schools will still have to deal with bullying.

Our school current bans (1) and is consulting on more bans. But from parent discussions it feels like both the school and parents are mixing up these issues and just coming back with "phones are bad".

[pjlegato]

The fact that many people now develop anxiety if unable to use a phone for even a very short time is a part of the problem.

The phone has become a pseudo-appendage for most people now. Even those who spent most of their lives blissfully phone-free quickly internalized the need for connectivity.

Raising children from a young age to expect and demand access to phone connectivity at all times is making this problem much worse.

No, you do not need to have a phone at all times "for emergencies" that almost never happen. The negative effects of perpetual connectivity are far, far worse.

Almost all humans (including those alive today) managed just fine to live life without a perpetual phone link. Teach children to do the same. The phone is a nice-to-have, not a necessity to merely venture out of the house on a routine trip to school and back.

[calibas]

> many people now develop anxiety if unable to use a phone for even a very short time

That's a very polite way of saying "addiction".

[sigmar]

>No, you do not need to have a phone at all times "for emergencies" that almost never happen.

Almost never happen? There have been 464 school shootings in the US since 2010. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_th...

[arp242]

I don't understand (2); I (and probably you, too) never had a phone going to school, or playing outside, or doing most other things, and this was fine. If you really need to get in touch for the rare emergency that will probably never happen you can just ring the school. I sometimes see parents talk about not being in contact 24/7 is like [1].

On a practical level, "no phones at all" is just so much easier to enforce.

[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJP4dr_mioA

[andrewla]

Yes, you were fine. But you were also fine meeting up with friends, giving up when people are late, making plans, etc. Society has moved on -- plans are dynamic and people keep each other updated. If you're running late you let them know and they go to the museum without you and you know you can catch up. If you're in the area, you send a quick message to see if they're around.

With kids it's the same -- you want to change pickup or remind them of a dentist appointment, you have that ability now, and why not use it? This is just the way the world is now. When kids make plans with each other they don't have to make a ton of arrangements, they can just fly by the seat of their pants; they can meet up with friends, or ditch them because they're feeling tired without it being a big deal or requiring a game-of-telephone approach to communication.

[notaustinpowers]

I get where you're coming from, but times have drastically changed. I feel we'd see better results in teaching kids from a young age how to responsibly use smartphones, use them for research, fact-checking, how to protect themselves, and building a healthier relationship with them.

If I know kids, banning something just makes them want it more.

[omh]

I agree that it would be fine to not have phones - we'd all cope.

But when my daughter hasn't got home on time if I can check her GPS and see that she's in the park then I can relax a little.

If she needs to say she's staying out late, using a group chat to let the whole family know is easier than trying to phone mum, then dad, then grandma.

Or she can include a photo showing how much fun she's having.

My life is richer because of communication on things like family group chats. It would be a shame to throw the baby out with the bathwater and lose that

[sandworm101]

>> 1. Use of phones in classrooms ... is undeniably bad and should be banned everywhere.

I disagree. For a few years I taught a university class and very much appreciated the kids having their phones in class. In discussions I would often task someone with looking up or confirming some pertinent fact or law. They would usually use their laptops but I didn't much care whether the used their phones. Students having ready access to information can be useful in a classroom.

[arp242]

This isn't really about university classes but elementary school and high school, and no one denied that phones can't be useful on occasion – just that the downsides outweigh the upsides.

[andrewla]

Well said! This is the same problem I have [1] with the messaging around this sort of thing and I don't know why people can't back up and figure out a more consistent approach to these separate issues.

One thing I hear a lot from parents of middle school and high school children (mine are just entering this domain) is that there's a deeper problem of teachers losing control of students -- even when they have these policies, the teachers and administrators are unable or unwilling to enforce them. I don't know what the solution to this is, though.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40718848

[red_admiral]

> teachers losing control of students

Outside very "leafy suburb" areas, this was a problem long before smartphones existed.

[NegativeLatency]

Smaller class sizes couldn’t hurt

[VyseofArcadia]

> But from parent discussions it feels like both the school and parents are mixing up these issues and just coming back with "phones are bad".

Always seems to boil down this way. There is no place for nuanced discussion in US school policy. "Zero tolerance" was just a crystallization of existing all-or-nothing trends.

[duxup]

The problem with the phones and social media is bad discussion is that ... school's can't fix that. It's just too far outside their ability to control.

[superkuh]

It's worse than that. The meme is now the extremely vague and dangerous "screens are bad".

[DiggyJohnson]

But in general I believe this is true. I don't think it's as vague as you think it is. I'm not sure I would agree with "dangerous", but definitely "unhealthy".

[peppertree]

Apple should jump ahead of the problem and allow schools to control screen time and focus modes.

[Workaccount2]

The last thing Apple is going to do is put a bad taste in the mouths of it's most obedient golden geese. Apple stock would probably halve if kids stopped socially shaming each other into buying iPhones.

[omh]

There is a potential clash here between control and privacy.

A few years ago Apple blocked[1] some parental control apps because "they put users’ privacy and security at risk"

This actually came up with our school. They tried to use an app to control student phones but it was fundamentally limited by these Apple restrictions.

[1] https://www.apple.com/uk/newsroom/2019/04/the-facts-about-pa...

[martin-adams]

The side effect may be that kids start asking for Android phones which would be the exact opposite of what Apple wants

[duxup]

First thing I would do is to wonder how I could enforce that ... for fun and games on others.

And really if we're talking about having to enroll a device into some sort of managed device system, schools don't have the time or manpower to manage tracking every kid's phone that is in the school.

And if we're talking about something you don't actively choose to enroll, we're back to my fun and games.

[eaurouge]

> group chats are really good

Does your kid need group chats when they're in school with their mates?

[pjlegato]

Moreover, when a kid is perpetually glued to a screen absorbed in a group chat, they are much less likely to interact with others who are physically around them and ever develop any actual mates.