An amazing place. I visited twice about 15 years ago and have many fond memories of it, but mostly when I think about it I'm filled with sadness, because the people there deserve so much better. They're constantly knee-deep in corruption, both street level and just the very blatant kleptocratic presidential family. There's a lot of ethnic Russians, both expat workers and ones that didn't manage to leave after the collapse of the Soviet Union, that are very openly racist towards ethnic Tajiks but were usually allowed to run free. The people were hospitable and open and very happy to have guests in their country, but it also seemed like a very bleak place, with few good prospects for the future.
I visited last year. I agree with everything you said. It was beautiful. I didn't notice many Russians there at all though. Many more in the surrounding stans.
> many fond memories of it, but mostly when I think about it I'm filled with sadness, because the people there deserve so much better. They're constantly knee-deep in corruption, both street level and just the very blatant kleptocratic presidential family
I spent 2 years driving the length of the Pan-American Highway, and 3 years driving right around the African continent.
What you said can equally be applied to many places I spent a good deal of time in. Incredibly friendly, warm, kind and happy people to a degree I did not know was possible on planet earth. Sadly they're held down by corruption, ineptitude and the West.
Happily, virtually every single person laughs, sings, dances and celebrates basically everyday, because they choose to be vibrantly happy despite all the BS.
> The government and locals don’t like when you bring up Borat
Depends on which locals. Younger generations never really cared about this. All my friends have always found the movies hilarious, especially the first one.
It's a beautiful country if you love hiking or mountaineering, though certainly has a lot of practical challenges. The article did a very good job of explaining the local situation in Tajikistan and giving you a bit of a feeling of what it's like to be there.
The whole thing is great and worth reading, but I wanted to highlight this anecdote:
> I asked about the criminal justice system and I was told there wasn’t much of a formal one. My companion explained that most matters were handled internally by families. For instance, if a 20-something got in a fight with another 20-something and the cops got involved, the police would most likely contact the families and let the parents and brothers sort that shit out with a warning not to cause trouble again. The families would enforce order through shaming, threats of social ostracization, and possibly physical violence.
Honestly that’s kind of nice compared to our “one mistake and your life is ruined forever” system but I guess it all comes down to how violent their country is and if those tactics actually work.
Not so new fact that many here may already know: The (in?)famous -stan suffix, coming originally from Persian, is an etymological cousin of State, Street, Statistics, Strategy and Stadt.
In Iran, provinces are called Ostan and some Ostans' names end with -stan (e.g. Ostan of Kurdistan).
By the way, since it's not clear from their names, it may be worth noting that Tajiki and Persian are two dialects of the same language.
I did not know that. Apparently they are both from PIE *sta-, "to stand". -stan is "place (where one stands)". State in the sense of condition, status, standing is "how one stands", and state in the sense of nation-state is an association via "state of the country", "state of the republic".
*Farsi. Persia doesn't exist anymore. I find it strange that somewhat uniquely people refer to Iran by its ancient name. We're not speaking anglo-saxonish
I listened to https://www.theredlinepodcast.com/post/tajikistan-and-region... yesterday. It's an extremely interesting discussion on the geopolitical factors both internal and external that shape Tajikistan's security sitation, and who's interests Tajikistan's security dysfunction serves.
i had the opportunity to travel to central asia last summer for a couple weeks (both uzbekistan and tajikistan, briefly). was really a fascinating trip to a part of the world that i barely knew anything about!
for those who are curious about traveling in central asia in general, there is a great travel blog of sorts called caravanistan -> https://caravanistan.com/forum/
the main website is useful for travel logistics but i find myself returning to the forum pretty often to see travel updates from people on the ground in those places. really interesting to me to read about various border crossings between countries, what to expect when traveling around/between countries, etc
I found their map of border crossings in Central Asia the best source for current and accurate information and very helpful as a shared Google Maps map.
So snow at 13,000 feet in the summer, deep inland. How has there not been attempts to develop this for alpine sports? The quality of the snowfall plus the terrain seems made for it.
Quite a good article on Gambia, but just get you to want to know more about the chinese involvement there on top of Russia. Btw, the sex part is not a click bait and not important part of the article. The usual failed African politics and economy is usual. Just want to know any “success” story. Even if it is odd by western “standard”.
You can't see beauty in a country that isn't perfect? I know plenty of people who have some flaw they would probably be better off without, but I don't say "I don't see imperfect people as beautiful, and if you do it means you like to see them suffer."
Why do you jump to calling the author sadistic for finding the positive in a complicated situation?
Is a country that changes the value of a citizen's vote based on whether they live in a populated area functional? What about a country where the elections are about choosing between two obnoxious candidates who are both over 80 and out of touch with the issues their citizens care about? If the supporters of one geriatric statesman call the supporters of the other Nazis (both directions) - does that count as understanding each other?
I spent a fortnight with a small group of friends motorcycling along the Pamir highway back in 2022, then another week or so over in Kazakhstan (off the bikes this time).
Fascinating pair of countries, and highly recommended to go travel and get off the beaten track.
Dream trip. Your own bikes ? How "free" were you and how difficult was it ? I've traveled by motorbike on 4 continent now and am dying to visit central asia to do more of that.
Great article, always happy to see my home country featured abroad.
Just to nitpick, however:
> Got independence from the USSR in 1991 and had some power struggles until a Soviet guy took over in 1994 and then won a brutal civil war against a coalition of Islamic extremists and has been running the country ever since
Calling it Islamic extremists is a bit reductive. The coalition (United Tajik Opposition) was with the Islamic Renaissance Party, a couple of pro-democracy parties which were supported by the majority of the intelligentsia, and also included a party for Pamiri Autonomy. The most common thing among them is they were all united against the Communists.
Source: I am Tajik and was born around the Soviet Union collapsed. Also studied the history of the civil war
I visited Tajikistan last summer and spent about three weeks in the country. One week in Khujand (I crossed the border from Uzbekistan) and Dushanbe, and two weeks in the Pamirs.
Just like the author I (from India) travelled with a couple of Europeans, a German girl and a French guy. I very much enjoyed my time there, especially in the Pamirs. I stayed with a local family who hosted me in Khorog. I went hiking, watched Afghan villages from across the border, and also worked remotely.
I did some work in Tajikistan a while back. Really good fun with some great people.
It was also the most vertically integrated place I've ever encountered. I've worked in a lot of places outside of EU/US and it's the only one where I've felt you could stick most people on the country on an organigram.
I wanted to go once but heard that either the taliban or al queda were in the area, which is unideal as an American citizen. Is that not the case anymore?
There has been, as far as I know, one single case of tourists being attacked (and killed) by militant Islamists, which happened a few years ago. So statistically it's probably safer than a lot of places. There is significant resistance to the regime under the surface, but everything is still held together by an aging, kleptocratic authoritarian. So in some sense it's a volatile place, and the situation could obviously change significantly in a matter of hours or days in a way that's unlikely to happen in, say, Europe. (Or at least Europe of five years ago...)
I think it is still a very safe place to visit, and many tourists, including Americans, visit every year. Extreme things can happen anywhere. The likelihood of getting mugged I'd say is effectively zero, at least compared to London or Barcelona.
Taliban (across the Panj river) has been a threat until recently. But for now they seem to be friends with Russia and Tajikistan has always been a Russian client state.
Tajikistan looks to be an interesting case of Islam being kept in check without resorting to either extremism or terrorism. But this is neither free nor assured, and it probably requires constant wilful effort.
In the long term, I can see it bleeding more territory to China due to the significant difference in military power and aggression. This is so long as there isn't a NATO-like structure to keep Chinese aggression in check, constituted of its neighbors.
Islam is extremely important to Tajik identity. But Tajikistan is making the same mistake many other Muslim dictatorships and authocracies did. By not having a real open political system, the only place for dissent to take root is in Islamist circles, and then that's the opposition you get.
What a lot of Westerners don't realize is this kind of sentiment is exactly why Islamist parties and political groups are so popular in the Muslim world.
If your only choice is extremely socially conservative, democratic groups like the Muslim Brotherhood (or worse) or a literal Kim Jong Un alike, then it's pretty obvious who you'd choose.
This is resorting to extremism and terrorism, it's just conducted by the army and police. Did you not hear how many people were assassinated and killed by this dictator to maintain iron grip control over the country? How is that not terrorism?
All of the central Asian “stan” countries have a Muslim majority and Tajikistan is actually the most extreme of them. But Kazakhstan, kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, Indonesia, Turkey and Iran are all examples of islam without extremism (although Iran has fundamentalism)
> Tajikistan looks to be an interesting case of Islam being kept in check without resorting to either sharia or terrorism.
Because it's done through extreme human rights violations such as torture, kidnapping, kangaroo courts, etc [0].
This only radicalizes the Jihadist movements, who's hardcore believers went into exile Afghanistan, Pakistan, Chechnya, Syria, etc and became extremely prominent in the Islamic State movement (eg. The former head of Tajikistan's Spetznaz defected to ISIS back in 2015 and became their War Minister).
ISKP is extremely Tajik in leadership, and this has helped them commit mass casualty attacks like the Kerman Bombings and the Moscow Theatre Siege
Once Emomali Rahmon dies, the Civil War will restart.
> bleeding more territory to China due to the significant difference in military power and aggression. This is so long as there isn't a NATO-like structure to keep Chinese aggression in check, constituted of its neighbors.
Countries like India have had Air Force bases and boots on the ground in Tajikistan for decades [1]
---------
If in San Francisco or New York, I recommend checking out Halal Dastarkhan or Farida's, Tandir Rokhat (Bukharan Jewish), Aziza 7, and Salute (Bukharan Jewish) respectively.
The owners are all ethnic Tajiks from Uzbekistan. Bukhara is ethnic Tajik but in Uzbekistan because Stalin.
I think there's more danger of bleeding territory to the Taliban, at least it has been the case until recently. Especially if Russia (who has had a big military base there forever) becomes irrelevant.
Saying "Islam being kept in check" in this way sounds an implication that religion (or perhaps just this one) ought to be suppressed. This sort of attitude and policy coming from it is like gasoline for religious extremism, and the fact that Tajikistan exports extremists should be enough evidence for that
And there it is again that cultural inability to build institutions beyond "family". How is that culture compatibel with complex states and compamies in east and west? With longterm development in general? Then again it has thriving families, compared to the west and east, whos societies dissolve once the rewards of modernity appear. The ideal would be a cycling hybrid i guess.
Inb4 those weirdos who go all in on nurture, but then refuse to discuss nurture, leaving the terrain to conspiracies and racists.
Yeah, as someone who grew up in Tajikistan myself - can confirm most of the observations (like 99% is very accurate). I never noticed any special love for Americans tbh, probably the dude just didn't know anything about European countries your friends were from. Mostly people love any tourists (for different reasons, but never sincerely :) )
I love this style of writing and how it introduces a place I almost never thought about before. I didn't know anything about Tajikstan except its name so this was all new information. Thank you!
> Sadly, the Dushanbe flagpole lost its status as the world’s tallest in 2014, only three years after its construction, to the Jeddah Flagpole in Saudi Arabia, which I have already seen without knowing its illustrious status in the world flagpole standings:
> I have to admit that I find it kind of funny that Tajikistan spent $3.5 million to win an extremely petty international prestige project contest, and then it lost a few years later to a country with 30X the GDP per capita and 100X the GDP. Saudi Arabia’s lead lasted for seven years until Egypt took the top spot and Russia slid into second place
Quite amusing to see how a man writes about -stan and Saudi Arabia but his mind is firmly not on these countries.
> On this particular point and some others, I wondered whether my companion had an overly rosy and maybe sanitized view of Tajik culture, which isn’t uncommon for immigrants to have toward their homeland.
Or maybe he didn't want to speak freely with some foreign rando. Especially some foreign rando from America. Cue in the next three paragraphs.
> due to an apparent combination of local fashion sensibilities and I guess fabulous Persian hair
That's a funny observation but this is how you instantly recognize Tajik from any other guy from Central Asia.
> How can two countries have so many military fights that result in direct casualties, including straight-up artillery barrages over the border, and not actually declare war on one another?
> I have no idea.
I have no idea how some country can travel to literally the other side of the planet and yet not actually declare war on the country it is invading. *shrug_emoji*
> And of the better armed one-third, I swear, most didn’t have clips in their AKs. Meaning, they either carried no ammo or only a single round in the chamber.
Or they are required not to have a loaded magazine[0] in the firearm because they aren't in the constant direct threat and don't have a need to respond instantly.
I know, it's hard to comprehend to someone from "I bring a loaded AR in Taco Bell (along with two Glocks and assortments of EDC tactical knifes) else I'm feel like naked" nation, but no magazine in a firearm doesn't mean there is no magazines at all.
> Claim 2: The “Taj” in “Taj Mahal” refers to the Tajik people.
After the turmoils of 1990s many ex-USSR countries tried to invent their ancient connections, so if you hear something along that - keep a salt shaker nearby.
> Buzkashi
Oh, yes, a lot of this types of.. activities in the Central Asia. The included video is hilarious for the reaction of the announcer and the comments[1]
Overall this article is.. obviously biased by the US-tinted glasses. I found myself reading it for the author perspective, less for the actual content.
I also struggled there, perhaps that's the wording for Russia doing some flagpoling without claiming 1st place at any point of time.
There's three awfully huge flag poles in St. Petersburg erected last year, perhaps these are the culprits of that sentence. For the curious, these exhibit Emperors' flag, Soviet hammer-sickled and Russian tricolor.
Some comments were deferred for faster rendering.
rvense|1 year ago
ssijak|1 year ago
ashilfarahmand|1 year ago
grecy|1 year ago
I spent 2 years driving the length of the Pan-American Highway, and 3 years driving right around the African continent.
What you said can equally be applied to many places I spent a good deal of time in. Incredibly friendly, warm, kind and happy people to a degree I did not know was possible on planet earth. Sadly they're held down by corruption, ineptitude and the West.
Happily, virtually every single person laughs, sings, dances and celebrates basically everyday, because they choose to be vibrantly happy despite all the BS.
justsomehnguy|1 year ago
> openly racist towards ethnic Tajiks
Makes me wonder, maybe something happened between ethnic Tajiks and ethnic Russians between Soviet Union collapse and the present.
protomolecule|1 year ago
[deleted]
lye|1 year ago
Depends on which locals. Younger generations never really cared about this. All my friends have always found the movies hilarious, especially the first one.
When the sequel was released, the government finally started acting like adults: https://youtu.be/eRGXq4t9wY4
I'm pretty sure this is also caused by generational change in the government.
nradov|1 year ago
“I fully support my government’s position to sue this Jew.”
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/business/business-news/bor...
furyg3|1 year ago
https://www.pamirtrail.org
It's a beautiful country if you love hiking or mountaineering, though certainly has a lot of practical challenges. The article did a very good job of explaining the local situation in Tajikistan and giving you a bit of a feeling of what it's like to be there.
konart|1 year ago
loeg|1 year ago
> I asked about the criminal justice system and I was told there wasn’t much of a formal one. My companion explained that most matters were handled internally by families. For instance, if a 20-something got in a fight with another 20-something and the cops got involved, the police would most likely contact the families and let the parents and brothers sort that shit out with a warning not to cause trouble again. The families would enforce order through shaming, threats of social ostracization, and possibly physical violence.
BurningFrog|1 year ago
They're probably the most common way of organizing societies throughout history. The western individual citizen based society is an anomaly.
dyauspitr|1 year ago
theanonymousone|1 year ago
In Iran, provinces are called Ostan and some Ostans' names end with -stan (e.g. Ostan of Kurdistan).
By the way, since it's not clear from their names, it may be worth noting that Tajiki and Persian are two dialects of the same language.
lordofgibbons|1 year ago
So Tajikistan means: the land of Tajiks, Afghanistan means the land of Afghans, Kurdistan means the land of Kurds, etc
edflsafoiewq|1 year ago
hot_gril|1 year ago
Also, lots of Mid East or central Asia town names end with -abad (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D8%A2%D8%A8%D8%A7%D8%AF#Pers...). Interestingly, so do some large American city names, I can't remember which.
sumedh|1 year ago
Does it come from Persian or some common Indo European language, Sanskrit has something similar as well.
hyperbolablabla|1 year ago
colonCapitalDee|1 year ago
babi_|1 year ago
for those who are curious about traveling in central asia in general, there is a great travel blog of sorts called caravanistan -> https://caravanistan.com/forum/
the main website is useful for travel logistics but i find myself returning to the forum pretty often to see travel updates from people on the ground in those places. really interesting to me to read about various border crossings between countries, what to expect when traveling around/between countries, etc
ChuffedToBits|1 year ago
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1Ml8xrhk9Jwr00_Gdcc...
culebron21|1 year ago
mc32|1 year ago
wbl|1 year ago
layer8|1 year ago
optimalsolver|1 year ago
https://mattlakeman.org/2023/07/10/notes-on-the-gambia/
ngcc_hk|1 year ago
RecycledEle|1 year ago
I do not see dysfunctional countries as beautiful. I prefer well functioning countries where things get done and people understand each other.
I guess the author likes to see people suffer?
rdlw|1 year ago
Why do you jump to calling the author sadistic for finding the positive in a complicated situation?
nlitened|1 year ago
It would be a shame to only have known cakes my entire life.
riehwvfbk|1 year ago
medwards666|1 year ago
Fascinating pair of countries, and highly recommended to go travel and get off the beaten track.
stef25|1 year ago
n00shie|1 year ago
Just to nitpick, however:
> Got independence from the USSR in 1991 and had some power struggles until a Soviet guy took over in 1994 and then won a brutal civil war against a coalition of Islamic extremists and has been running the country ever since
Calling it Islamic extremists is a bit reductive. The coalition (United Tajik Opposition) was with the Islamic Renaissance Party, a couple of pro-democracy parties which were supported by the majority of the intelligentsia, and also included a party for Pamiri Autonomy. The most common thing among them is they were all united against the Communists.
Source: I am Tajik and was born around the Soviet Union collapsed. Also studied the history of the civil war
plastic_bag|1 year ago
Just like the author I (from India) travelled with a couple of Europeans, a German girl and a French guy. I very much enjoyed my time there, especially in the Pamirs. I stayed with a local family who hosted me in Khorog. I went hiking, watched Afghan villages from across the border, and also worked remotely.
specproc|1 year ago
It was also the most vertically integrated place I've ever encountered. I've worked in a lot of places outside of EU/US and it's the only one where I've felt you could stick most people on the country on an organigram.
danpalmer|1 year ago
kylehotchkiss|1 year ago
rvense|1 year ago
I think it is still a very safe place to visit, and many tourists, including Americans, visit every year. Extreme things can happen anywhere. The likelihood of getting mugged I'd say is effectively zero, at least compared to London or Barcelona.
geoka9|1 year ago
frakt0x90|1 year ago
n00shie|1 year ago
OutOfHere|1 year ago
In the long term, I can see it bleeding more territory to China due to the significant difference in military power and aggression. This is so long as there isn't a NATO-like structure to keep Chinese aggression in check, constituted of its neighbors.
rvense|1 year ago
cyberax|1 year ago
"In check" in this case means a 7-year civil war that ended up with 1% of the country _dead_ and around 15% of the population displaced.
aprilthird2021|1 year ago
If your only choice is extremely socially conservative, democratic groups like the Muslim Brotherhood (or worse) or a literal Kim Jong Un alike, then it's pretty obvious who you'd choose.
This is resorting to extremism and terrorism, it's just conducted by the army and police. Did you not hear how many people were assassinated and killed by this dictator to maintain iron grip control over the country? How is that not terrorism?
pythonguython|1 year ago
alephnerd|1 year ago
Because it's done through extreme human rights violations such as torture, kidnapping, kangaroo courts, etc [0].
This only radicalizes the Jihadist movements, who's hardcore believers went into exile Afghanistan, Pakistan, Chechnya, Syria, etc and became extremely prominent in the Islamic State movement (eg. The former head of Tajikistan's Spetznaz defected to ISIS back in 2015 and became their War Minister).
ISKP is extremely Tajik in leadership, and this has helped them commit mass casualty attacks like the Kerman Bombings and the Moscow Theatre Siege
Once Emomali Rahmon dies, the Civil War will restart.
> bleeding more territory to China due to the significant difference in military power and aggression. This is so long as there isn't a NATO-like structure to keep Chinese aggression in check, constituted of its neighbors.
Countries like India have had Air Force bases and boots on the ground in Tajikistan for decades [1]
---------
If in San Francisco or New York, I recommend checking out Halal Dastarkhan or Farida's, Tandir Rokhat (Bukharan Jewish), Aziza 7, and Salute (Bukharan Jewish) respectively.
The owners are all ethnic Tajiks from Uzbekistan. Bukhara is ethnic Tajik but in Uzbekistan because Stalin.
[0] - https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2023/country-chapters/tajik...
[1] - https://www.tribuneindia.com/2006/20060422/main6.htm
geoka9|1 year ago
aenopix|1 year ago
mkoubaa|1 year ago
_ddbw|1 year ago
[deleted]
ssijak|1 year ago
[deleted]
Log_out_|1 year ago
Inb4 those weirdos who go all in on nurture, but then refuse to discuss nurture, leaving the terrain to conspiracies and racists.
Also the hospitality is pretty legendary.
hackum|1 year ago
numbers|1 year ago
navane|1 year ago
justsomehnguy|1 year ago
> I have to admit that I find it kind of funny that Tajikistan spent $3.5 million to win an extremely petty international prestige project contest, and then it lost a few years later to a country with 30X the GDP per capita and 100X the GDP. Saudi Arabia’s lead lasted for seven years until Egypt took the top spot and Russia slid into second place
Quite amusing to see how a man writes about -stan and Saudi Arabia but his mind is firmly not on these countries.
> On this particular point and some others, I wondered whether my companion had an overly rosy and maybe sanitized view of Tajik culture, which isn’t uncommon for immigrants to have toward their homeland.
Or maybe he didn't want to speak freely with some foreign rando. Especially some foreign rando from America. Cue in the next three paragraphs.
> due to an apparent combination of local fashion sensibilities and I guess fabulous Persian hair
That's a funny observation but this is how you instantly recognize Tajik from any other guy from Central Asia.
> How can two countries have so many military fights that result in direct casualties, including straight-up artillery barrages over the border, and not actually declare war on one another?
> I have no idea.
I have no idea how some country can travel to literally the other side of the planet and yet not actually declare war on the country it is invading. *shrug_emoji*
> And of the better armed one-third, I swear, most didn’t have clips in their AKs. Meaning, they either carried no ammo or only a single round in the chamber.
Or they are required not to have a loaded magazine[0] in the firearm because they aren't in the constant direct threat and don't have a need to respond instantly.
I know, it's hard to comprehend to someone from "I bring a loaded AR in Taco Bell (along with two Glocks and assortments of EDC tactical knifes) else I'm feel like naked" nation, but no magazine in a firearm doesn't mean there is no magazines at all.
> Claim 2: The “Taj” in “Taj Mahal” refers to the Tajik people.
After the turmoils of 1990s many ex-USSR countries tried to invent their ancient connections, so if you hear something along that - keep a salt shaker nearby.
> Buzkashi
Oh, yes, a lot of this types of.. activities in the Central Asia. The included video is hilarious for the reaction of the announcer and the comments[1]
Overall this article is.. obviously biased by the US-tinted glasses. I found myself reading it for the author perspective, less for the actual content.
[0] Yes, it's a magazine:
> Clip (firearms)
> Not to be confused with Magazine (firearms).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clip_(firearms)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magazine_(firearms)
[1] It's in the article but if you are lost: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JUn8MsEyPs
thriftwy|1 year ago
I also struggled there, perhaps that's the wording for Russia doing some flagpoling without claiming 1st place at any point of time.
There's three awfully huge flag poles in St. Petersburg erected last year, perhaps these are the culprits of that sentence. For the curious, these exhibit Emperors' flag, Soviet hammer-sickled and Russian tricolor.