Original post is from April, but there is an update at the bottom from June:
> Got a call from Apple after 2 months. They have decided that iDOS is not a retro game console, so the new rule is not applicable. They suggested I make changes and resubmit for review, but when I asked what changes I should make to be compliant, they had no idea, nor when I asked what a retro game console is.
I understand why you would believe this, but Apple currently refuses to notarize UTM for distribution outside of the App Store via Notarization under rule 2.5.2:
> UTM also noted that Apple is barring UTM SE from being notarized for third-party app stores because the app apparently violated guideline 2.5.2. That rule states that apps have to be self-contained and can’t execute code “which introduces or changes features or functionality of the app, including other apps.” [0]
While the DMA may eventually force Apple to slide on this rule, currently it doesn't actually solve the problem at-hand.
Indeed, the entire app store review is just a facade for Apple's market grabbing practices. I'm more than happy the EU is taking steps to address this.
I really wish folks in the US would step back for a second and stop defending the corporation with "end to end" control of their life.
Yeah, it's crazy there's no other options, like a platform that openly allows sideloading. Its terrible that were all forced to buy Apple products, especially when this behavior from them is just so surprising.
Apple seriously needs to make all internal coms about rejecting apps public to the person being rejected. I do mean all this way, when people blog about it, there's no more ambiguity and it can be assessed. Also, you can see if they're rejecting it for something they already approved of prior. It feels like some people doing the reviews dont look at prior history at all. Maybe they dont even get access to it, or maybe they dont want to do it. Let the applicant see their entire history, let them better clarify.
This type of chest beating principal lacks nuance, there are certainly reasons why a reasonable person would agree it is in Apple (or any marketplace operator) not to share rationale directly with the creator. The easiest example would be comms indicating that Apple is detecting malicious behaviors (spam, fraud, abuse, etc) in the app. Disclosing information what can (and implicitly what cannot be detected) is self defeating. There are literally hundreds of reasonable variations in these situations.
I think what is effective is that all violations where the creator is working in good faith to abide by guidelines should be treated with reasonable transparency about how the conclusion Apple came to was reached. What fraction of Apple devs are working in good faith? Obviously the vast majority. So therefore most rejections should have clear rationale.
I have the same weird Apple review experience a couple of years ago too. Sorry for hijacking this post. But every year Apple is just throwing random rejections with our app.
Careful now, or you might just get Safari banned by the App Store reviewers...
Kidding aside, PWAs (also almost killed by Apple in their furious stomping on the ground after the DMA getting passed) used to be the canonical way to get around many App Store limitations in the past. There were quite a few emulators available for it, as well as game streaming clients for things like Stadia.
> Safari on iOS has no issues emulating DOS games, other than the UI, I am surprised someone has not just wrapped a WebView in a console-esque UI.
There's a-Shell, which does something similar, but for WASI as a runtime target instead of DOS.
But to Apple, it usually doesn't even matter how something is accomplished if they don't like the outcome. If they say that "DOS is not a retro console" (what does that even mean!?), they won't allow it in any form. (Sometimes they do care about the how; can't have third-party browser engines, for example.)
Apple seems to be really afraid that if they give people the ability to emulate an old computer on an iPad, they'll just install Windows 98 on there and stop using iOS nearly as much.
Submitting apps to the App Store is one of the more frustrating things in life. Reviewers are lazy, random and don’t do any homework. You roll a dice and hope you don’t have any issues. Couple that with a bloated Xcode that still hasn’t learned anything from VS Code, long compile times, long processing times, bullshit compliance checkboxes and the time-consuming filling out of information of what your app is all about. Oh, and you can do the same again for Google’s Play Store!
What’s needed is for regulators to step in. Create an independent government-run tribunal to which app store review decisions can be appealed by the developers, and legally mandate Apple/Google/etc to obey its rulings. Maybe the EU will do it.
If the EU mandated it other jurisdictions would likely follow. Even if they didn’t, you’d likely just be able to incorporate an EU subsidiary, then resubmit the app in the subsidiary’s name, and then lodge the appeal in its name if the submission still gets rejected.
Doesn't Xcode use Clang for Objective-C and Swift? I find it hard to believe the code is so bloated. LLVM/Clang and GNU GCC are neck-in-neck for code size and speed. The rest of your comment is fine. I'm sorry about your experience.
Heh, try the process for getting a dev kit from Nintendo. Or going through the lotcheck process for actually publishing/updating.
I made an app for the Wii U. There were multiple times before putting it on the store that my app was rejected for one thing, and then the next time I submitted it they rejected it because they wanted it the way I originally had it.
The app did decently well, so I thought I’d make a sequel for the Switch. I spent a month or two on enough of a prototype to show them and had my request for a dev kit flat out rejected multiple times, with absolutely no reason given. Not a single freaking word. I gave up.
It seems like their issue is that DOS is available for use, underneath everything. I wonder if they'd apply the same restrictions to, say, a Commodore 64 or Apple II emulator that provides BASIC access?
Apple gets a lot of flack for making iOS a closed system and I genuinely believe that the decisions they make are what they believe are in the public good.
...except for App Store reviews, which are frequently irrational, contradictory, and kafkaesque. (Automatically denied because the app shared the name with a version disallowed under the previous policy? Then denied because they had tried too many times? This is all absurd.)
Apple seriously needs to do a complete reset and reevaluation of how the App Store review system works, because the unfairness and absurdity of it all is tarnishing the reputation of everything else they do.
> I genuinely believe that the decisions they make are what they believe are in the public good.
Yes, because users would much rather make purchases outside apps like Kindle because of Apple’s revenue cut. Apple is such a great company that it’s inconceivable they’d ever to protect their own interests and stifle competition.
> I genuinely believe that the decisions they make are what they believe are in the public good
Time and time again leaked emails show the decisions they make are what they believe are in the interest of money. They have some "do good" ideas, but they don't represent the interests of any public body of people, nor is it their main interest.
If they did, their products would be designed around repairability, for one. And the way they steer general computing into whatever restrictions make them more money (when they could just make general computers like they used to) is definitely not in the interests of the public.
All in all, I don't have a problem with Apple. It's a company, it serves its own investors' needs. It functions very well in the capitalistic system — very successful. But the idea that they, all in all, make decisions for the best of the public is contrived and reaching.
Often enough, Apple's and consumers' selfish interests overlap. That's ok, they're not a nonprofit organization, and this type of win-win is a great example of capitalism working out well!
But I'd never mistake that for altruism or "taking decisions in the public good". They're a for-profit corporation, and these sometimes have the unfortunate habit of turning to rent seeking to keep supporting the profits expected of them even in the face of changing market realities. That's why we have regulators.
> I genuinely believe that the decisions they make are what they believe are in the public good.
The decisions they make are in service to their revenue and market share numbers. If marketing their decisions as "for the public good" helps those, then that's what they do.
That's not always a bad thing! Sometimes the interests of a capitalist corporation actually aligns with the interests of its customers. The problem is that the link isn't always there, and things can change for the worse for arbitrary reasons.
Being excluded from the store doesn't mean your code cannot run. It just means people have to want to jump over more hoops to run it. Ultimately, it might mean $99 for a developer account, Xcode, and signing your own binary. Contract law covers how you get the code to compile.
I only say this because there is no sense in pretending this is an absolutist position, that Apple has forbade their CPUs from executing instructions in sequence to the effect this or any other rejected app direct: what they stopped is making it transactionally easy, or chargeable under their model of revenue flow.
This app was also rejected from EU alternative app stores (which is illegal BTW), so the only way to get it would be something like the classic AltStore, which requires a real computer, and allows only three apps to be installed, and the apps expire every 7 days. https://faq.altstore.io/how-to-use-altstore/your-altstore
mortenjorck|1 year ago
> Got a call from Apple after 2 months. They have decided that iDOS is not a retro game console, so the new rule is not applicable. They suggested I make changes and resubmit for review, but when I asked what changes I should make to be compliant, they had no idea, nor when I asked what a retro game console is.
We need a DMA over here yesterday.
Shank|1 year ago
I understand why you would believe this, but Apple currently refuses to notarize UTM for distribution outside of the App Store via Notarization under rule 2.5.2:
> UTM also noted that Apple is barring UTM SE from being notarized for third-party app stores because the app apparently violated guideline 2.5.2. That rule states that apps have to be self-contained and can’t execute code “which introduces or changes features or functionality of the app, including other apps.” [0]
While the DMA may eventually force Apple to slide on this rule, currently it doesn't actually solve the problem at-hand.
[0]: https://www.theverge.com/2024/6/24/24185066/apple-pc-dos-emu...
isodev|1 year ago
curiousdeadcat|1 year ago
/s in case.
LeoPanthera|1 year ago
Apple Intelligence - points you to Apple Music or Apple Maps as a response to your query? Illegal.
iPhone Mirroring - doesn't work with Windows or Android. Illegal.
Shareplay screen sharing - doesn't work with Windows or Android. Illegal.
There's a reason those features are not getting an EU release.
giancarlostoro|1 year ago
This is so embarassing to see every time.
bhawks|1 year ago
I think what is effective is that all violations where the creator is working in good faith to abide by guidelines should be treated with reasonable transparency about how the conclusion Apple came to was reached. What fraction of Apple devs are working in good faith? Obviously the vast majority. So therefore most rejections should have clear rationale.
jncfhnb|1 year ago
lawgimenez|1 year ago
https://law.gmnz.xyz/2022/02/02/submitting-urgent-hotfix.htm...
teruakohatu|1 year ago
https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/23/22590511/idos-2-emulator-...
Safari on iOS has no issues emulating DOS games, other than the UI, I am surprised someone has not just wrapped a WebView in a console-esque UI.
lxgr|1 year ago
Kidding aside, PWAs (also almost killed by Apple in their furious stomping on the ground after the DMA getting passed) used to be the canonical way to get around many App Store limitations in the past. There were quite a few emulators available for it, as well as game streaming clients for things like Stadia.
> Safari on iOS has no issues emulating DOS games, other than the UI, I am surprised someone has not just wrapped a WebView in a console-esque UI.
There's a-Shell, which does something similar, but for WASI as a runtime target instead of DOS.
But to Apple, it usually doesn't even matter how something is accomplished if they don't like the outcome. If they say that "DOS is not a retro console" (what does that even mean!?), they won't allow it in any form. (Sometimes they do care about the how; can't have third-party browser engines, for example.)
grishka|1 year ago
dang|1 year ago
“Apple has removed iDOS 2 from AppStore, citing the same old 2.5.2.” - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28122895 - Aug 2021 (2 comments)
iDOS 2 will be gone soon - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27924207 - July 2021 (409 comments)
IDOS strikes back, returns to the App Store - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2123727 - Jan 2011 (1 comment)
ed_mercer|1 year ago
No thanks, I’ll stick with PWAs.
skissane|1 year ago
If the EU mandated it other jurisdictions would likely follow. Even if they didn’t, you’d likely just be able to incorporate an EU subsidiary, then resubmit the app in the subsidiary’s name, and then lodge the appeal in its name if the submission still gets rejected.
throwaway2037|1 year ago
AuryGlenz|1 year ago
I made an app for the Wii U. There were multiple times before putting it on the store that my app was rejected for one thing, and then the next time I submitted it they rejected it because they wanted it the way I originally had it.
The app did decently well, so I thought I’d make a sequel for the Switch. I spent a month or two on enough of a prototype to show them and had my request for a dev kit flat out rejected multiple times, with absolutely no reason given. Not a single freaking word. I gave up.
ilaksh|1 year ago
Although, people might think you are poor. Which would be.. worse than death? Rather just not have an app for some people? lol
pilif|1 year ago
BaculumMeumEst|1 year ago
LocalH|1 year ago
teekert|1 year ago
unknown|1 year ago
[deleted]
Kenji|1 year ago
[deleted]
fragmede|1 year ago
[deleted]
hoppyhoppy2|1 year ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
shortformblog|1 year ago
LeoPanthera|1 year ago
...except for App Store reviews, which are frequently irrational, contradictory, and kafkaesque. (Automatically denied because the app shared the name with a version disallowed under the previous policy? Then denied because they had tried too many times? This is all absurd.)
Apple seriously needs to do a complete reset and reevaluation of how the App Store review system works, because the unfairness and absurdity of it all is tarnishing the reputation of everything else they do.
cebert|1 year ago
Yes, because users would much rather make purchases outside apps like Kindle because of Apple’s revenue cut. Apple is such a great company that it’s inconceivable they’d ever to protect their own interests and stifle competition.
caseyy|1 year ago
Time and time again leaked emails show the decisions they make are what they believe are in the interest of money. They have some "do good" ideas, but they don't represent the interests of any public body of people, nor is it their main interest.
If they did, their products would be designed around repairability, for one. And the way they steer general computing into whatever restrictions make them more money (when they could just make general computers like they used to) is definitely not in the interests of the public.
All in all, I don't have a problem with Apple. It's a company, it serves its own investors' needs. It functions very well in the capitalistic system — very successful. But the idea that they, all in all, make decisions for the best of the public is contrived and reaching.
lxgr|1 year ago
But I'd never mistake that for altruism or "taking decisions in the public good". They're a for-profit corporation, and these sometimes have the unfortunate habit of turning to rent seeking to keep supporting the profits expected of them even in the face of changing market realities. That's why we have regulators.
kelnos|1 year ago
The decisions they make are in service to their revenue and market share numbers. If marketing their decisions as "for the public good" helps those, then that's what they do.
That's not always a bad thing! Sometimes the interests of a capitalist corporation actually aligns with the interests of its customers. The problem is that the link isn't always there, and things can change for the worse for arbitrary reasons.
reaperman|1 year ago
ClumsyPilot|1 year ago
The purpose of the system is what it does
threeseed|1 year ago
You can't make statements like this without looking at it statistically.
There are tens of millions of updates a year and we only see the most egregious rejections make its way into the public sphere.
ggm|1 year ago
I only say this because there is no sense in pretending this is an absolutist position, that Apple has forbade their CPUs from executing instructions in sequence to the effect this or any other rejected app direct: what they stopped is making it transactionally easy, or chargeable under their model of revenue flow.
Kwpolska|1 year ago