[rabite]

Okay. Let's pretend the Soviets killed nobody in Ukraine other than the Holodomor. That's 5 million people. The credible threat of millions more being butchered by the Soviets was real. At this point, we are disputing small fractions of the total deaths. I don't care if it was only 5 million, though it was millions more.

[ossobuco]

There is no Ukrainian/Soviet distinction. Ukrainians were Soviet at the time. Ukraine was historically part of the Russian empire and only split very briefly after the revolution. You are trying to promote the idea of a split between Russia and Ukraine that didn't certainly exist at the time.

Putting that aside, nobody "killed" 5 million people. Killed certainly isn't the correct term, as the Holodomor was about deaths by starving and not by shooting. We're talking about mismanagement, not murders. Otherwise we'd have to consider every death caused by government mismanagement as murder.

When a homeless dies for the cold do you consider him to have been killed by his country?

When someone dies because they couldn't afford insuline, is it a murder by the government?

When a worker dies in a factory accident, was he killed by an unequal economic system?

Between 17500 and 46500 homeless died in the USA in 2018 alone[0], was that mass murder by the government? No? Then the Holodomor wasn't a genocide.

By the way, get your numbers straight again, it's 3.9 millions[1], not 5.

- [0]: https://nhchc.org/homeless-mortality/

- [1]: https://cla.umn.edu/chgs/holocaust-genocide-education/resour....