[z33k]

This is why we need labor unions. The power dynamics are almost universally stacked in favor of the employer. Unions can equalize this to an extent. You will still be disposable, but at least you will get better terms if you end up getting disposed of.

[taurath]

Oh, but my employer is different and a union would only make business more complicated and less likely to give me raises and promotions! I’m a rising star, you know.

- A literal supermajority of software developers

[Akronymus]

Over here (austria) the unions, which are pretty powerful, argue on behalf of ALL employees in that field. They basically set the minimum pay/benefits across the country for the kinds of jobs they represent by negotiating with the industrial association. By law, the result of those negotiations are the baseline for everyone. And everyone can still negotiate for better terms with their employer.

One benefit the union members have over the non-union ones, though, is that you get insurance for legal counsel, for example. Other than that, union members don't have that many benefits, tbh. I still chose to be a member, because IMO it's the right thing to do.

[throwaway7ahgb]

These comments miss so much nuance. This isn't black and white.

I don't want to work for a union not because I'm a rising star. It's because I know I'm on the right of a normal distribution. I don't want to revert to median pay. No thanks.

[resource_waste]

If you work at a Union place, you know the complications are absurd.

I've worked at both, and the efficiency, friendliness, experience were all absurdly better without unions. With unions, everyone was trying to get each other written up, seniority mattered more than performance, politics were half the conversations at work.

Engineering would be miserable with a union, you'd be basically locked into an employer climbing the totem pole.

[maxehmookau]

> - A literal supermajority of software developers

_American_ software developers. Many in Europe don't fall for this way of thinking.

[lordnacho]

Is it because of something inherent to software development, or is it just that software development became a big job category in an environment that was skeptical of unions?

[Aeolun]

I make enough money, I’m happy in my position, I feel like my employer treats me fairly. Why should I want a union?

I also have nationally strong’ish labor laws.

[cdogl]

You’re not wrong, but in Australia where I work only 12.5% of all workers are in unions. We have some moderately union-hostile legislation (strikes are hard to pull off lawfully) but nothing preventing union organisation in principle for most workers. So evidently it’s not only software developers who think this way.

[redleader55]

I don't want to be "equalized". I'm happy to negotiate my own terms. In my experience the union leaders negotiate better terms for themselves than for the people they represent. The company prefers to have a good "shepherd" for the flock - the union leader.

If you look at where the good salaries are, you will not find them in France, Germany, Italy where the unions are strong, but the Bay Area, London, New York where unions are not really a thing.

[Rinzler89]

>If you look at where the good salaries are, you will not find them in France, Germany, Italy where the unions are strong, but the Bay Area, London, New York where unions are not really a thing.

True, but those "good salaries" are only but a fraction of the total salaries in the countries you mention. Methinks a country should prioritize the welfare and well being of the entire country's people and the average worker instead of focusing on the top 1% SW devs while letting everyone else sink.

Maybe keeping public services running for the bottom half of society is more important for society than creating the top SW companies in the world. After all you can't eat software, but we do need garbage men, doctors, pilots, sailors, nurses, handymen, architects, oil & gas and construction workers, farmers, car mechanics, barbers etc. a lot more to survive and run a modern society, than we need web devs to write yet another food delivery, ride sharing or crypto trading app designed just to skirt the laws and scam VCs and clueless investors while the interest rates are low.

If your toilets breaks, you still need an actual plumber to show up in person to fix it since he can't push an OTA fix remotely from home, otherwise you'll be rooting in your own shit no matter how advanced your knowledge of K8s and ML-Ops is. Who cares if you're a well paid SW dev in London, NYC or San Fran but you can't walk alone at night because you're surrounded by poor minimum wage struggling and homeless people on substances or mental illness from wealth inequality, lack of welfare/social care and societal collapse due to decades of poor political and financial policies designed only to favor the wealthy?

This is just my biased opinion, don't treat it as gospel ground truth.

[ChrisMarshallNY]

> New York where unions are not really a thing.

I live in NY, and I can tell you that unions are very much a “thing,” hereabouts.

[einpoklum]

> I don't want to be "equalized".

You already are - by your employer. Mostly equalized at the absolute bottom of every situation where you disagree with your superiors or need to rely on the company for something.

> I'm happy to negotiate my own terms.

And your employer is even happier for you to believe you are actually negotiating your own terms.

> In my experience the union leaders negotiate better terms for themselves than for the people they represent.

That is certainly a potential problem. But think about the distribution of status, benefits and compensation of owners, managers, and employees - that's even more extreme, and prevalent, than misdeeds by union leaders.

This sounds like a bit of a "democracy can have corruption so let's support the monarchy" kind of an argument.

> The company prefers to have a good "shepherd" for the flock - the union leader.

What companies prefer is to shepherd the flock themselves. Failing that, getting a collaborative shepherd. The challenge in unionization is disrupting the shepherding and allowing for conscious collective reflection and action.

> in France, Germany, Italy where the unions are strong, but the Bay Area, London, New York where unions are not really a thing.

The US is the center of the major world empire right now, and is not really comparable with most other places. However, even if you took the US - it's pretty much a hellscape, socially. Large tech companies are swimming in their ill-gotten gains while a huge number of people are homeless, many can only access contaminated water, students are in massive debt, infrastructure is in poor repair, public facilities and systems are under-developed...

----

[StefanBatory]

Exactly this. Union members, to an fair extent, are leeching on the back of other, productive employees.

[StefanBatory]

Labor unions are deeply corrupt. They serve the employer.

At my dad job their leaders of unions are literally paid as "leaders" xd No conflict of interest and the fact they always get so well with CEO and never with workers is not suspicious.

[eikenberry]

IMO the problem with unions is that they are still attached to a specific employer. I think a guild like structure would be better, where the guild would help you find employment along with improved terms.

[DonsDiscountGas]

It's why we need UBI and (in the US) universal healthcare, IMHO. there's a lot that's great about a dynamic and flexible economy, as long as it works for the people at large.

[cnotv]

It's 100% the same also with labor unions. The company has a deficit and has to lay off. You can give up on that if it is the same in Europe.