top | item 40977927

We created a fake delivery company to get a job

194 points| 1ikigai | 1 year ago |blog.kashevko.com

128 comments

order

troad|1 year ago

This is not even remotely cool. This shows a complete disregard for personal and professional boundaries and cultural norms. I have no idea how anyone thought cyber-stalking business people with a mixture of fraud, disregard for the dead, and non-consensual AI cloning was a good idea. Imagine placing your brand in the hands of a marketing agency with this level of judgement.

I've worked in fairly sensitive roles, and if a package like this arrived at my workplace the police would become involved immediately. And if asked whether I'd want to press charges, I would say yes, absolutely. When you've received death threats at work, and seen female colleagues receiving rape threats, your tolerance for this kind of crap wears thin.

Taniwha|1 year ago

But they're are literally trying to get jobs at evil marketing companies, surely they need to out-evil them to break into that industry?

ethbr1|1 year ago

> disregard for the dead

They didn't disregard them: they tried to target them with ads.

What higher form of acknowledgement is there in our modern world?

userbinator|1 year ago

Agreed. As I read this, "stupid influencer prank" is what comes to mind.

hipadev23|1 year ago

press charges over what.

BriggyDwiggs42|1 year ago

As long as they’re doing it to business people and marketing employees I’m fine with it. Most of them absolutely deserve some of their own medicine.

romantomjak|1 year ago

Creative solution to a problem they had - no job and apparently only a backpack to their name, but the story quickly fell appart when I realised that they bought delivery robots, laser engravers, clothing, seals, double digit ipads, etc. Clearly they are loaded and just trying to downplay their invasion of privacy and perhaps downright illegal cloning of voice and appearance to get a job. Good job on that one company calling them out.

tjoff|1 year ago

Agree, I got some anxiety thinking of the security implications of being handed an ipad of unknown source.

We are slowly getting to a place where people realize a USB-drive found in the parking lot should be met with suspicion. But target one of the higher-ups with an ipad didn't raise eyebrows? (maybe it did, hope so)

BadHumans|1 year ago

This is everything I hate about the internet in one story. Using ads to target people, using AI to clone someones' voice and identity, dogs. The person who said they were excited, confused, scared but curious sums up how I feel about this although I'm not curious because I know where it leads.

stratocumulus0|1 year ago

I already find it disturbing enough that I'm getting targeted by all those run-of-the-mill AI entrpreneurs matching the ML part of my job title and auto-generating my work email in order to try to sell me their barely strung together ChatGPT wrappers because they were "impressed by my AI experience" (I have none). If I got physical advertisement material using my likeness and delivered in person, I would straight up call the police on whoever brought me that.

nasdaq-txn|1 year ago

I agree. It's an invasion of privacy dressed up as a cute story.

mcculley|1 year ago

I think we can all agree about the evil of the adtech ecosystem. But what do you have against dogs?

rootsudo|1 year ago

Exactly. All because they want a "job." which just rewards this sort of behavior.

thih9|1 year ago

To be fair, they acknowledge they are being creepy and that not all reactions were positive.

Also, of all the shady hustling that I’ve seen, targeting high level employees with a creative-and-privacy-invading pitch seems the least problematic.

CM30|1 year ago

Well, it's certainly creative. Which is probably a good thing if you're running a marketing company like these guys are, especially given how packed the field is right now.

But to say it was a risky move would be the understatement of the century. Delivering mail to companies that didn't ask for it, and in person? Using dead people to advertise? AI created deepfakes of the people targeted as a persuasion tactic? This could have easily gone very poorly for you, and lead to all sorts of criminal charges. Remember, we're in a world where a few glowing lights for a TV show ad caused a bomb scare:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Boston_Mooninite_panic

Where harmless packages caused buildings to get evacuated, and Facebook had to change its ad settings because people were using it to target specific individuals.

The fact only one company sent a cease and desist, and no one got scared enough to get the police involved was probably a miraculous stroke of luck. So, points for creativity, though you got incredibly lucky the end result was so positive here.

wrasee|1 year ago

I have a hunch that one of the reasons it may have worked where it did is because they tapped very quickly into the ego of the executive they were targetting. Even the outside of box came with a picture with their (nicely stylized) face on it, which I wonder might have flattered and disarmed more than it should have.

Then inside, more personalized photos to keep them engaged.

Move the focus away from the individual to some brand message and I think the outcome could have been much more like you suggest.

In that sense, this is more a demonstration as to the effectiveness of social engineering than anything marketing related.

johnnyanmac|1 year ago

It's simply goodheart's law taken to the nth degree.

- People see that LinkedIn meme of some college student sneaking into a company o deliver pizza and attaching their resume to stand out

- People praise its creativity

- Someone desperate enough falls into Poe's law and tries to +1 that.

Maybe companies should properly utilize their "boring" pipeline if they don't want candidates to start getting "creative".

euvin|1 year ago

>It hit me. What if we use the ''custom audiences'' thingy, but just populate it with 299 deceased people and 1 person whom we really need to show this ad to?

What a sentence. And what an article, too: using the deceased as a marketing ploy, sending cryptic emails, AI + voice impersonation. I'm surprised they only got one cease and desist letter at the end. I wonder if this is the endgame of social mobility as more and more humans become replaced through automation: a competition for the attention of those at the top.

est31|1 year ago

> I wonder if this is the endgame of social mobility as more and more humans become replaced through automation: a competition for the attention of those at the top.

I think in general, the creative industry has always been one that fascinates people, that's its purpose in the end. This naturally motivates people to want to work in it, creating a large supply for a small demand of jobs. As a result, entering the industry is extremely difficult. It doesn't end at getting the job though, people in the creative industry are often extremely overworked.

On your other point, I agree that with the increase of AI there will be very negative impacts on social mobility:

* human labour will be increasingly worthless as robots get cheaper and more capable. It will only survive in a few niches where it gives sentimental value (humans are the new horses, cgp grey had a great video about this). so both skill and hard work won't be valued as much any more as they are valued right now.

* AI also gives better tools to the rich to protect their assets. With increased AI, there is less people required for society to function any more. The poor aren't driving the trains any more, nor are they shooting the guns, or running the steel mills. They can turn these tools less and less against the property owning class if they feel sufficiently dissatisfied.

* AI creates tremendous wealth and it's easy to make the poor feel wealthier just by giving them some of the crumbles, while giving 99% of the new wealth to the top 0.1%. Revolutions happen when people are hungry. When you satisfy their basic needs, then people care less about these issues. Yes, in the future, the bottom 99% might even be happy, but they might have increasingly small chunks of the new wealth.

dakiol|1 year ago

They read our emails, track our presence in the web, know what we buy online and even listen our conversations so that they can sell us stuff we don’t need. That bothers me more than what this fake company did.

And by “they” I mean big corporations in coalition with ad companies.

NetOpWibby|1 year ago

This line gave me pause. I was like, "Hunh? No way...they didn't seriously. Wait what? Oh shit wow...that worked?! Ehhhh~"

Impressive but yuck (personally).

If nothing else, they've proven they know how to think outside the sphere. I found it funny that Conde Nast sent a C&D.

probably_wrong|1 year ago

> Imagine one day randomly finding yourself in a foreign country thousands of kilometres away from home. Your own country is suddenly at war, and all you have is a backpack hanging off your back.

Well, a backpack and thousands of Euros to spend on robotic dogs, tablets, pen plotters, holographic envelopes, etc.

The cynic in me tells me those CEOs are not the only ones being sold a fairytale, specially considering how proud they are of how far they'll go to get eyeballs.

throwaway3306a|1 year ago

It's not like your bank account immediately stops working when you cross the border. There are people who had successful careers finding themselves in this situation, is their story not valid just because they also weren't completely broke? It's not actionable advice (is this even advice?) for someone with zero on their bank account, but why should it?

vineyardmike|1 year ago

This is really cool, but the narrative also has a few strong "Wait this is creepy" moments... There is a lot of creating problem solving and some awesome creations sprinkled in. But damn would I both love and hate to get one of those deliveries.

They cloned people with AI tools and created a bunch of deep-fakes which they then delivered to that person.

They used a (self made) list of dead people to improve targeted ads so they could cohort-advertise to a small list of people.

They created fake uniforms to deliver packages to offices, and seemed pretty successful.

I feel like this would make a great case study on targeted phishing and social-engineering.

rcbdev|1 year ago

Most people from Western Europe couldn't afford to just go to London like that and waste time and money in this way. I am much more curious about the state of these people's company's financials than anything else.

Also, elaborately targeting specific people like that and presenting them with the fact that you can fake their voice on top of any kind of outrages statements while you know exactly where they work and how to get there sets a hellish precedent and I'd even consider it a veiled attempt at a threat.

It is not what I'd consider culturally appropriate behavior in the UK, business-wise. I'd try to adapt, if at all possible, to the new environment you've found yourselves in unwillingly.

bonzini|1 year ago

They were living a comfortable life in a cheap country, and found themselves looking for a way to do the same job in a way more expensive city when their country was attacked and at war. I found their targeting strategy and "product" extremely creepy, but I am willing to give them a pass given the circumstances.

gred|1 year ago

Very interesting, very impressive, and a little concerning that this is what it takes to get noticed! I actually went in expecting something along the lines of "I started a profitable company in order to pad my resume and get some interviews; it worked, so now I can shut the company down."

dakiol|1 year ago

I have a couple of fake Linkedin profiles that look very attractive to tech recruiters. I always answer to offers like “Thanks, but no. BtW I would recommend <my-profile-here>“ (I don’t write exactly this, but something that sounds more natural and trustworthy)

It doesn’t work wonders, but helps.

robertlagrant|1 year ago

> a little concerning that this is what it takes to get noticed

It's not. Otherwise everyone would have to do it.

ghostly_s|1 year ago

Well, they seem to have put hundreds of hours of work into this ill-advised stunt and only got a two month contract out of it (whilst potentially burning bridges with some of their ideal employers). I would hardly read it as a success story.

elephant81|1 year ago

What are they actually selling? Their website, https://www.outstandly.com/, is a single landing page with "Creative solutions for boring problems."

Here is a boring problem, creatively show me your work.

AIorNot|1 year ago

Sounds like they are in creative/digital marketing space so this makes sense from that perspective- ie not the right tactic for a Java outsourcing company..

1ikigai|1 year ago

Would the case you just read count?

hiAndrewQuinn|1 year ago

Since this is on HN, I walked into this half-expecting the story to be about some backend dev who's been out of work so long that they created a fake company for their LinkedIn profile to meet the requisite "5 years of X", where X is the most popular PL searched for in their locale's LinkedIn.

This is much, much more interesting than that! Nice work.

peter_d_sherman|1 year ago

Random idea based on article:

I'd love to see a future Sci-fi TV episode where a character gets not one, but multiple such "from the future gift boxes with video messages from a future self" -- but from multiple future selves, that is, multiple future parallel universe versions of the character!

In other words, "here is a set of potential future you's -- along with the instructions to activate them -- important upcoming life decisions to make or not to make, depending on the desired outcome..."

And what would make it really interesting (as the plot unfolds!)... is that all of these apparently disparate sets of decisions -- are actually intertwined, entangled, and potentially mutually contradictory (i.e., choosing one set unchooses all of the others!)

Now, for extra points, for the future SF writer or writers working on this -- make it so that the main character, after discovering the "either-or" mutual exclusion principle inherent in these choices -- tries to somehow cheat fate and destiny by attempting to somehow obtain ALL of them at the same time!

Will the character be successful in his quest against the apparent exclusivity of fate?

Or will he somehow manage to attain all of these future possibilities, all at the same time?

Well, that's the episode plot for this future TV Sci-Fi episode and/or movie (should it ever be written!)

Anyway, interesting article!

BizarroLand|1 year ago

I could see this as 6 episode seasons and each episode comes with 2 boxes detailing potential outcomes, the first episode boxes cover the next week, the second cover the next month, then 6 months, a year, 5 years, and all the way to retirement.

After episode 5 which shows the MC having achieved an outcome they are happy with, episode 6 starts with a new person who gets an episode almost all to their self.

However, the first person finds them when back when they were on choice 2 (in Episode 2), and realizing that they are not the only person getting these choice boxes causes the original experiment that we saw to go off the rails. (Events in time can be changed after the fact, after all, the fundamental system the whole story runs on is time travel).

That queues up your idea of attempting to cheat fate and somehow obtain all of the potential futures with their #2 while also dealing with other people given choice boxes.

It allows the story to address all sorts of questions like, who is sending the boxes, what is the purpose of the boxes being sent, and what is the final goal once all of the time travel fuckery settles down?

Call it the Double Slit Experiment, maybe?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-slit_experiment

1ikigai|1 year ago

I LOVE THIS CONCEPT SO MUCH

CastIrony|1 year ago

I went on AliExpress to look up how much robot dogs cost, and after filtering out the ones that are obviously plastic toys, the ones that look like the photos they posted were thousands of dollars.

Seems like a weird priority for a project like this.

1ikigai|1 year ago

Yeah, it was definitely a silly, not economically viable leap of faith move. We enjoyed all of it.

popcalc|1 year ago

Tax write-off.

broken-kebab|1 year ago

Using marketing tricks to get a job in marketing seems like a full equivalent of a hacking of security services provider to get hired as a security expert. I suppose most HN visitors would assume the former to be ok as long as nobody harmed? Why so many commentators feel upset about the story then?

P.S. Though I do not like an attempt to pose as poor nobodies while they obviously could afford spending money on iPads to give away

1ikigai|1 year ago

We needed only a couple of used old iPads from the marketplaces. It's later that we learned majority of these companies have ''no valuable gifts'' policy where they must return things like these, so we just kept reusing the returned ones.

nickdothutton|1 year ago

For those of you pointing out the (obvious to some of us) problems with this approach, all I can say… having occasionally crossed paths (and done work with) the cutting edge of creative industries in London… this kind of extreme quirky/subversive/unorthodox pushing of the envelope is exactly the kind of thing they hire for and do every day. The advertising campaigns you experience yourselves, the ones that make it to mainstream B2C and B2B, are merely the tip of the iceberg. Under the surface (the extremely targeted campaigns you never hear of because you are not the intended audience) you’ve got all kinds of what you would think of as “dirty tricks” going on, and most of the time it works too.

CamelCaseName|1 year ago

What an awesome story. The amount of effort put in is nuts!

Also, LOL at Condé Nast. How on brand of them to C&D you!

1ikigai|1 year ago

haha, thank you! C&D included wording ''we appreciate creativity''.

But I hold no grudge. I don't know what was going on in the life of that person, maybe they had some creepy stalkers in the past who really caused them problems or maybe it even didn't get to them and this is just a standard procedure of their security team.

Lvl999Noob|1 year ago

While this is pretty cool, I feel like I must echo the sentiment here and also say that this is pretty creepy. I am fine with the "using dead people profiles to improve specificity of online ads" but the deepfakes part is very creepy. I am quite sure at least some of the targets would have started to doubt whether this is fake or real at some point. Imagine doing this on someone with the intention of radicalizing them. You can easily send messages like "The LBGTQ movement started out good. It even helped society a lot. But then it got overtaken by more and more inclusion. We came to realise that tolerance and inclusion just isn't something humans can do long term but by the time we did, it was too late. You need to do the right thing. Don't support them."

The part where they can just buy uniforms and go into an office to make a delivery sounds like very lax security with not much that can be done to fight against it.

saaaaaam|1 year ago

Aren’t the “uniforms” just high-viz vests though?

itronitron|1 year ago

creepy, reminds me of the webpage someone made years ago that shows a stalker looking through all the personal information and friend lists of the user visiting the page

lifestyleguru|1 year ago

Many of us found themselves trying their luck in London. They don't seem to financially need it, looking at the expenses.

curtisblaine|1 year ago

This site breaks Brave on Android. The page becomee slow, goes to "Oh Snap" in seconds and finally Brave gets terminated.

algas|1 year ago

The same thing happened to me. Escalating levels of non-response from my system, starting with the browser slowing down and culminating in Process Control stopping. I think it may have to do with uBlock Origin, which is default in Brave: on desktop (Edge with uBlock), it quickly spawns hundreds and hundreds of blocked POST calls to litix.io, an analytics website. These seem to be coming from the video player, which is constantly trying to beacon information back home. The site hovers around 10% of CPU on my desktop and I have to keep reloading it to poke around the devtools.

I would suggest making the analytics less aggressive and adding some kind of error catching so that it doesn't attempt to send data hundreds and hundreds of times.

curtisblaine|1 year ago

Incredibile that this has been down voted :) It was meant as helping OP, not criticizing his work. Or is Brave Browser the problem?

1ikigai|1 year ago

Sorry about this! It's a simple Ghost blog, but the post has lots of video and photo, that must be clogging the resources probably :(

jvdvegt|1 year ago

In Firefox on Android, I only get one image.

A4ET8a8uTh0|1 year ago

I have to say man.. as I read this stuff I can't but help to understand why Bill Hicks, Douglas Adams and many others talk about marketing the way do. I found myself repulsed, because I am absolutely willing to believe that this is not an isolated frame of mind.

I will say one nice thing. There is a level of whimsy to the idea, but good grief the execution of it is a violation of everything I consider appropriate. But then. as my marketing prof once said, marketing lives on the greyish side of legal. Moral is not even a thing.

vessenes|1 year ago

I’m on the “pro” side of the vigorous debate here — this is charming, hilarious and creative. The marketing ‘targets’ are all by and large public figures, the ego ploy to get to them seems to have been generally received as intended, … how could you not at least look at these two for creative work / guerilla marketing / some super cool campaign?

High level marketing thinkers all understand that they are playing in the field of human manipulation; some campaigns / ideas are transgressive, some are transgressive merely for the time they are in, some push the boundaries and lose. From the results here, this pushed the boundaries and won.

To me the mild lean-in on creepiness throughout, including some of the ai videos just says ‘creative geniuses’ - they set up a full campaign that benefits from limits of current tech, and got themselves a contract at Saatchi, in a country that’s famously rigorous and bounded in terms of class restrictions.

Nice work guys, keep coming up with cool hacks and good luck in your business.

1ikigai|1 year ago

Thank you so much! Really appreciate your kind words among a fair bit of not so kind comments in this thread.

dkersten|1 year ago

> Designing a fake delivery company seemed to be the most logical, straightforward way of contacting a person.

That does not sound logical or straightforward to me at all.

> To keep the intrigue going, we resorted to just sending cryptic emails to everyone a couple of days before the delivery

So, they’re spammers? And physical spam too?

This post reads as rather unethical to me… I wouldn’t want to work with them.

endofreach|1 year ago

Nice. I also really, really love the visual execution of your blog post. Of course, not every article i read should copy this, but here it seems to be perfect.

I envisioned a similar look for some video shots from my office. I know, lighting setup is key here, but which camera did you use?

Specifically the gif / video-loop with for "waiting".

Really well done everything.

1ikigai|1 year ago

Thank you so much! It's Nikon Z7 ii, but if I'd be picking a camera today I wouldn't take this one.

The big selling point of this camera for me when it just came out was a generous 45.7 MP sensor that meant I have a decent freedom for cropping stuff or printing my works on billboards (never happened) if I ever need to.

But now all the AI upscalers like the ones from the Topaz Lab disrupted the market and it's no longer an advantage really. It's still a great camera for pictures, don't take me wrong!

But if I'd be in the market for a video camera, I'd be looking at cameras from Black Magic or RED. They give you a cinematic look and actually have a proper RAW video file format for color grading.

If you want to achieve a similar look, here is a small lifehack we've used for most of the videos: smoke machine. You can get one off Amazon for like $50. It creates this cool deepness and light diffusion in the atmosphere. Just need to play around a bit with the distances between smoke and subjects, intensity and lights.

rdtsc|1 year ago

This may be a bit of a cultural impedance mismatch. I can sort of understand their position and sympathize with their situation, but it also seems creepy if I put myself in the shoes of their delivery targets.

coin|1 year ago

Why does the website have a scroll bar? My browser’s window already has one.

surfingdino|1 year ago

> We needed a job, a contract, a windfall!

Nope. You need to learn how to use money and find a way to spend less than you make. You had it good while you could count on arbitrage and you want to keep the gig going. Magically, the first thing that comes to mind is to you fuck around with robots, AI, and deceased people's pasts while your countrymen and women are dying fighting Russians. Grow up.

postscapes1|1 year ago

Bravo. After all this and using the tool what are some takeaways on ai and how it will disrupt (or not) these very same companies?

1ikigai|1 year ago

Thank you. Lots of them already using AI for all kinds of tasks. I think it's just important to stay practical as lots of companies slap ''magic AI'' on everything, where it doesn't always makes any sense. Similar to a period when everyone was building everything on a ''blockchain'' because it was ''cool'' and could have given you funding, although the reason for your ''groundbreaking todo app'' to be built on blockchain was... none.

arcbyte|1 year ago

Very very impressive! Lots of success coming their way if they keep going!

A4ET8a8uTh0|1 year ago

I feel a weird level of repulsion that this approach is not only, apparently, rewarded, but also considered advantage in our society that will result in future success. I have long wept for our future and this is likely a reminder of why we fail as a species.

isatty|1 year ago

> so we’d better check from the back door. What if it's unlocked, they are waiting for the pizza guy and there is actually a party and free drinks?

> Designing a fake delivery company seemed to be the most logical, straightforward way of contacting a person.

I understand part of this is tongue in cheek but wtf?

ada1981|1 year ago

I’d love to have these guys on a creative team.

Dachande663|1 year ago

What vile people. Each step is a further descent into hell.

kats|1 year ago

Nice!

ipjrms|1 year ago

Disturbing. Real sociopath energy. They'll probably be millionaires in no time, honestly.

RockRobotRock|1 year ago

God, this sucks so hard. Was your last venture NFTs by any chance?

iftheshoefitss|1 year ago

The email post is from earlier and this are by far my fav articles on HN on bro

rnewme|1 year ago

You'll love the guy that hired chicks to watch him work then as well tsk I've seen your nick in other treads today, you seem to be down voted everywhere. I wonder why

brianbreslin|1 year ago

loved this story, wickedly creative. This type of creativity should be encouraged.

philipwhiuk|1 year ago

Delivering unsolicited packages to company mailrooms?