Lots of people have a lot of negative stuff to say, but my take is: if you do psychedelics, you need to do the work and you need a firm ground before that. We have research that it might help with PTSD, depression, etc. but it's not like you just take it and you're done. It's a powerful substance and with power comes responsibility. I like to think of it more as an enhancer as to what's inside your head anyways. If that's fucked already, how are psychedelics gonna help you?
You're right. There are a lot of misconceptions because the majority of people has never tried strong psychedelic drugs like psilocybin or LSD, so their information is based entirely on hearsay. Both in the negative sense ("you can permanently 'fry' your brain", "you'll jump out of the window", etc), as well as positive myths like that it's going to solve all your mental issues.
I'm not fully sure regarding the last sentence though. The important thing to know for those who have never experienced it and who have issues that could come out during the trip is that you need to care A LOT about set and setting. You should have an experienced person whom you fully trust and who can guide you through the experience. Don't do it on your own when you're in a bad state, that's pretty much the worst way to take psychedelics and basically asking for the trip to go wrong. And you'll want to avoid strangers as well unless you're super extroverted maybe.
Also, and that's my personal take, don't sign up to questionable retreats or scientific studies/therapies conducted by self-proclaimed experts who have never taken it themselves. Just because someone has a degree in psychology - a questionable science to begin with when you look at all the failed attempts to replicate the findings - it doesn't mean they understand how it feels to be on a psychedelic trip.
Psychedelics weaken your emotional associations. Which can be helpful and/or unhelpful.
It's not a matter of more work.
Whatever feeling you had about this chair has changed. It use to represent a memory or a feeling from childhood. That's changed or is gone for better or worse.
That's how to perceive how it works.
If you are 'fucked' because you can't move on it will help. If you feel a lack of connections to things/people it could help form new ones or reduce what you currently have.
Removing emotional memories can be scary. Removing PTSD memories can be freeing.
I walked in psychedellics a bit fucked, though id been doing the work to get better. I was simply at an impasse with no way forward. For me, psychedellics shook things up in a way that allowed for a level of introspection and wrangling of the self the allowed for meaningful change. For example, i went from hopeless alcoholic with little to no positive outlook in life to having a healthy relationship with alcohol (and other substances) meaning general abstainence but socially acceptable levels of partaking where appropriate.
This is of course not everyones story, many i know who took similar substances ended up in much worse positions.Some had even been doing the work to get better also. For the time being I think theres an element of luck, but i hope we figure out how to remove the luck component and make it a science.
The way I'd explain it Is that whatever loss function the mind uses to optimize the personality was stuck in a poor local optima and psychedellics knocked that marble right loose. There was a time i was a bit 'lost' in it all but i was able to get back on track in a reasonable timeframe and through the change in perspectove and way of thinking kept improving well past were id gotten to prior to that.
Despite what positive things i have to say about it, i wouldnt recommend it, unless it truly is your last option. i spent years with psychologists and paychiatrists prior to that. Ive seen many go down the path of the illicit and not get better but much much worse, and more that went down professional help based pathways who got better more consistently, and got worse far more rarely.
No matter how good one's ground is, lots of LSD in a city apartment will likely drive you crazy.
I never have had a bad trip, except for that time I took 800 mu-g GG in my tiny apartment. I became insanely restless, waking up 12 hours later trying to open the window to get to more natural environment. My lights were dropped on the floor, as well as plenty of water, broken electronics and ruined papers.
Since then I've learned to use music and earplugs; keep the windows open; have high CRI bulbs; keep lots of plants; and to never hesistate going to an ice shower when feeling like a confused and mentally stressed ape.
The level of control one wants, I believe, is roughly the same as beating a nightmare disorder with lucid dreaming. One ALSO must have familiarity with "foundations" of the world, or else they will end up doing dumb stuff with dumb beliefs. By foundations I mean sort of at least grasping that it's all arbitary and then building what you want on That.
It's interesting that brain hypersynchronicity is a known source of epileptic seizures (among other things). This potentially could be a treatment for this specific problem.
I can't think of anything in the world I would enjoy doing less than completing "a simple auditory–visual matching task" while in an MRI scanner on shrooms.
The set and settings researchers typically use for usual psych studies are going to bias psychedelic results so much. Think that building you hated in undergrad's crusty unlit cinderblock basement with no windows but coated in cameras and microphones. Its so dystopian, you are literally a caged rat. I don't think you can perform this research in good faith without having experienced a proper trip yourself. It's just impossible to put into words much less gleam any actual understanding from written description of it.
Science needs more Albert Hoffman's who are willing to couple their knowledge with this experience without fear of being fired from IRB violation and ostracized by the scientific community. Otherwise we will forever be grasping in the dark with these drugs.
I agree, they can already be mentally uncomfortable if you don't like enclosed spaces. Perhaps there's some kind of psychotherapeutic techniques used prior to getting in the MRI during the come up period, to kind of boost positive emotion about the whole process.
Haha I wouldn't. People have made such a big deal out of this drug requiring set and setting but I've swum in the ocean, played soccer, watched movies and TV, played board games and all with great fun. Indoors and outdoors. It's fantastic.
Agreed. Being in an MRI sounds like you are in the middle of a warzone. With constant sounds that sounds somewhat like gunshots. That would be pretty terrifying on shrooms.
This concerns Functional Connectivity[0], which is basically a measure of how temporally correlated regions are; those that fire in sync or in a strongly correlated pattern are functionally connected.
Essentially, the TL;DR of this study is that psilocybin's 5-HT2A agonism seems to reduce synchronized FC activity not just in neurons but the whole brain: psilocybin makes parts of the brain overall that otherwise work together (in a time-correlated sense) stop displaying time-correlation. These results were seen most in the Default Mode[1] network, which is more or less the brain system in operation when you are inside your head — daydreaming, thinking, remembering, etc. — as opposed to processing visual cues or observing the physical world.
I think the fact that nobody knows how to deal with negative correlations in functional connectivity takes away from the validity of the whole concept. People literally throw out negatively correlated voxels/ROI's. This, on top of the fact that functional connectivity is only related to physical connectivity in the abstract. (it's about the correlated time series activity in pixels over time, and isn't bound by any cellular connectivity). I just struggle to discern any meaning from the concept.
Yeah, this is super interesting. The obvious follow up for me is what implication this desynchronization has on cognition. People who have done a lot of psilocybin tend to be quite a bit 'different' at least in my experience—they tend to be more reserved, maybe a bit more thoughtful, slower, introspective, etc.
But what causes this change in personality? People who have done a lot of psilocybin seem to be a lot less worried, a lot less neurotic, and a lot less wrapped up in the ego than those who haven't. After all, who wants to be wrapped up and ruminating based on the content of their thoughts? I've always thought of this behavior by those who have used psilocybin to be a feature, not a bug—as if they're enlightened.
But if, say, this newfound personality is the result of a loss in functional connectivity—what does that tell us about how other markers of cognitive function have changed? Is strong FC a prerequisite for strong executive function or other measures of intelligence? The paper seems to suggest that the changes in FC are associated with the default mode network and maybe not other states of brain focus.
But will a macro dose of psilocybin, say—make someone better at their job? Maybe we don't know yet, and maybe there won't be a clear answer; there is a lot of heterogeneity in the way people think, and how they exploit their own cognitive abilities to provide value in the world—so maybe a loss in FC will mean different things to different individauls. But given the suggestion from this paper that the effects of psilocybin may be somewhat permanent, the answer to this question will be a very useful for those looking to benefit from this therapeutic.
Feedback in an anlog signalling system producing delays, reflections, geometric and clipped artifacts is something anyone who has used a guitar effects pedal is familiar with. I have a surprising number of old comments on this site about how hallucinogens just impair signalling and the results are geometric for the same reasons. This article says it impairs the equivalent to the CLK signal, which sounds just about right.
Don't be disappointed about it not being another spiritual dimension, they discovered we literally have effects pedals for our brains. This is the coolest thing ever. We could probably classify hallucinogenic artifacts by chorus, delay, flange, harmonics...
This is an interesting combination with this post from yesterday (Study reveals how anesthesia drug propofol induces unconsciousness): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40981421
Their conclusion in that paper is that Propofol derails the brain’s normal balance between stability and excitability, which induces unconsciousness.
incredibly powerful drug. we should be training a legion of mystics using psilocybin instead of criminalizing it and obfuscating the implications of its use
Project MKUltra was an illegal human experiments program designed and undertaken by the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) to develop procedures and identify drugs that could be used during interrogations to weaken people and force confessions through brainwashing and psychological torture.
[...]
The project studied the effects of psychoactive drugs, particularly LSD, psilocybin, mescaline, cocaine, AMT and DMT on people
PSA: My buddy shot himself in the head while we were on shrooms in our twenties. He thought he meant God, took a shower picked up a gun and shot himself in the head.
While I've had trips since then and do get benefits from those experiences. People without experience should be careful, especially if you have a history of mental illness. He did have a history to some degree but not overtly.
Similar thing. My good friend and early college roommate took his own life with a gun after having a bad trip. I wasn’t there for it, but the way he described it he felt ridiculed and deserted by his old high school friends during the trip. He was left alone to deal with these feelings.
His mood post trip became increasingly abysmal. He became highly paranoid, and started questioning the loyalty of the people close to him like his family. I now know that this was a sign of possible schizophrenia. I now know that dementia runs in his family. He started creating simplistic yet disturbing paintings. I wish I still had them.
This happened in March of 2020, COVID had just become a national concern. I was dating long distance at the time and she wanted me to come up before the airports closed down. Sometimes I regret going. I wish he had gone somewhere so he wasn’t alone. He ended up shooting himself with his grandfathers rifle.
I guess the lesson here is be cautious with drugs that can accelerate mental illnesses if you have a family history of them. Check up on your friends that have bad trips and seem kinda off.
Part of the lesson of this story is the danger of having a gun in the home at all. He could have been sober and depressed and did the same just as easily thanks to having access to a gun. There's a lot of statistical evidence for how dangerous situations like depression or domestic violence can become once a gun is nearby.
Thanks for that PSA. And here's to your lost friend!
I have a lost one too, but due to a different cause. He took hard drugs he was dealing to pay off a house after a legislative decision basically eliminated his well paying job. We grew up very much do what it fucking takes kind of people. And we were tested in life more than once. I still draw from that time today, sometimes remembering and finding that which will get me through. I miss him terribly.
Had he not used, he would have made it! We talked about that, and he used "a little" to know better what he was dealing. Now we all make choices and he made his. At the time, financially, it was understandable, though I would have chosen differently myself.
Anyhow... hard lessons!
Lost him in my very early 30's and I think of him regularly, as I am sure you do yours. What got him was the loss of autonomous breathing! Yes, right out of Greek mythos, he suddenly had to breathe consciously after a particularly nasty interaction with some of the product and his physiology.
It truly was a curse. Bit by bit, he lost the fight. Was cruel and hard to watch.
Sidebar: I am angered and lament the timing because I very strongly feel some form of electrical stimulation could have helped. I lacked means at the time. We both really wanted to try. Doctors had nothing.
End sidebar.
These drugs have awesome potential, but they also come with considerably greater risks than many of us know too.
Good PSA. Seconded.
Be careful peeps. We think we understand. Fact is we just don't yet.
And that will improve with proper study using the scientific method.
If you ask me, cutting those risks is the single most powerful argument for permitting ongoing research and study of the powerful things left for us in Mother Natures kitchen.
People discover powerful drug
-> Powerful drug causes negative reactions in some people
-> Drug is banned and knowledge is lost
-> People discover powerful drug.
Pharma is responsible for suppressing knowledge and proper medical treatments. They're letting people die so the fear sets their patented drugs in stone. It has worked very well for them.
There is a plethora of information on the net on how to start safely, if at all, and why most people should not use psychedelics at all. Set and setting are just as important as the dosage.
Everyone who has tripped hard and come out unscathed can consider themselves lucky to have such a strong constitution. I am a firm believer in that psychdelics are wonderful, but powerful. And not everyone can handle the experience. At one end might be a slightly anxious trip, but at the other end is a complete breakdown of your reality.
Thanks for sharing. Not sure if the guidance to do shrooms in an appropriate setting and with an appropriate mindset ("set and setting") would have helped, but certainly that guidance is no joke!
And we should absolutely continue research to learn more about the adverse effects. Obviously they help a lot of people, but must be done with care and seem not to be helpful for every person. We must learn more about these conditions.
A user named observationist made a response to this post, but they responded to a troll, whose comment was nuked which removed their very valuable comment (I was responding to them at the time so I happened to have both in cache).
Around 1% of people have schizophrenia. This holds over a lifetime - there's a structural, unavoidable component to the person's neural wiring or physiology that will result in a schizophrenic break. Prior to the break, they may seem more or less normal, but after, they will experience deficits in cognition and perception, and may have significant barriers to living a normal life.
Schizophrenics, as a rule, will have a psychotic break before they turn 45. Psychoactive substances, and high doses of psychedelics, will trigger breaks from reality earlier than they might otherwise happen. Stress, caffeine, trauma, or significant excitement can also be triggers, but psychedelic drug trips are a reliable trigger, and in conjunction with other effects, can spiral a "bad trip" into a much worse trauma.
Another 3 to 4% of the population have significant mental disorders, ranging from those we know, to those we can observe but don't have a good diagnostic criteria for. In these cases, it can be very detrimental to use psychoactive substances generally, and psychedelics in particular.
It's crucial to visit with a doctor to rule out the likelihood that you're in the roughly one in twenty people that might have a significant negative reaction to psychedelics. Some of the people in that camp might be safe from harm later in life. I know a person with significant family history of schizophrenia and earlier life indicators he was at risk, who then started using mushrooms in his 50s and seems very stable. He talked things over with his doctors before deciding to take the risk - apparently after you turn 45 it's incredibly rare, even with significant trauma and stressors, for schizophrenic breaks to occur, so if that's your main threat, it might be safe to engage in psychedelics when you're older.
If you're not in the high risk camp, you should still have at least one frank discussion with your doctor about pitfalls, and do a metric ton of personal research about any substance you intend to use. It can be a profound and wonderful departure from the norm, or a mildly unpleasant experience, or a stressful confrontation with your inner demons, depending on the dose and preparation.
my response:
Thank you for this. I thought this was a very informative comment; I am worried about schizophrenia as a disease that might impact my kids. I wanted to ask you for more information, but that is a burden, so I asked ChatGPT instead so at least you wouldn't have to go find links. If you have Other reading besides what is below I would be happy to hear about it.
Here is it's response from ChatGPT (Claude couldn't provide links). My contribution is that I checked the links and skimmed them to see if they supported the statement. They are repetitive (there are only 7 articles linked actually), but they generally support your comment. Of note the PLOS article does not support your comment, and it seems that it doesn't support what ChatGPT says (maybe I misunderstood when skimming it). The stuff in parens below (Looks Like This), was a link in ChatGPT, but the links didn't copy-paste, so I'm going to put all the articles at the top here:
The comment you saw online contains some accurate points but also could benefit from additional context and nuance based on available research.
1. Prevalence and Risk Factors of Schizophrenia:
- The lifetime prevalence of schizophrenia is approximately 0.3% to 0.7% globally, which supports the 1% figure as an upper bound (Nature) (BioMed Central) (World Health Organization (WHO)) .
- Schizophrenia typically emerges in late adolescence to early thirties, with men often experiencing onset earlier than women (National Institute of Mental Health) (World Health Organization (WHO)) .
- Factors such as genetic predisposition, prenatal exposures, and psychosocial stressors contribute to the risk of developing schizophrenia (National Institute of Mental Health) (World Health Organization (WHO)) .
2. Triggers for Psychotic Breaks:
- The statement that high doses of psychedelics can trigger psychotic breaks in predisposed individuals is supported by evidence. Drug-induced psychosis, particularly from hallucinogens and cannabis, can lead to schizophrenia in some cases (Psychiatric Times) .
- Other triggers include stress, trauma, and significant life changes, which can exacerbate underlying vulnerabilities (Berkeley Psychedelics) .
3. Impact of Psychedelics on Mental Health:
- Psychedelics can pose significant risks for individuals with a family history of schizophrenia or other major mental health disorders. It is crucial for these individuals to consult healthcare professionals before considering psychedelic use (Berkeley Psychedelics) .
- Research has shown that about 25% of those with substance-induced psychosis may transition to schizophrenia, with the type of substance being a significant predictor of this transition (Psychiatric Times) .
4. General Mental Health Considerations:
- Around 3-4% of the population may experience significant mental disorders other than schizophrenia. For these individuals, the use of psychoactive substances, including psychedelics, can be particularly detrimental (PLOS) . [NOTE: This seems to be an error from ChatGPT, this PLOS article doesn't seem to support this conclusion. As I haven't done personal work on this yet, I don't know whether the statement is supported by other research.]
- Mental health evaluation and professional consultation are recommended before the use of psychedelics to identify potential risks and ensure safety (Berkeley Psychedelics) .
5. Later-Life Considerations:
- The risk of new-onset schizophrenia after the age of 45 is indeed rare, which suggests that older individuals may have a lower risk of experiencing a first psychotic episode triggered by psychedelics (Berkeley Psychedelics) .
For further reading and to deepen your understanding, you may refer to sources like the National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH), the World Health Organization (WHO), and recent research studies on the global burden and risk factors of schizophrenia (National Institute of Mental Health) (World Health Organization (WHO)) (Nature) . Additionally, the Berkeley Center for the Science of Psychedelics (BCSP) provides detailed information on the safety and risks associated with psychedelic use (Berkeley Psychedelics) .
>Healthy adults were tracked before, during and for 3 weeks after high-dose psilocybin (25 mg) and methylphenidate (40 mg), and brought back for an additional psilocybin dose 6–12 months later.
Not simultaneously I hope.. that sounds like it would be a rough ride
"[methylphenidate] was selected as the active control condition to simulate the cardiovascular effects and physiological arousal (that is, controlling for dopaminergic effects) associated with psylocybin"
While it's amusing in the short term, the long term side effects for me were awful. I felt like my brain was slow and unfocused, I was no longer quick in conversation or able to concentrate as well as usual, I felt disconnected from myself, sort of like when you recall a memory so old that it seems like it belongs to someone else, I had a headache for almost 3 weeks.
Throwing this in here as there are a fair few "dude just take drugs" comments and worry they might be the religious types.
Mushrooms are very contradictory in their nature to the modern "cog in the machine" lifestyle. It's a bit like being subjected to a software fuzzer. I imagine if learning from one's inputs, one will be afterwards less sure of concepts one was very sure about, but also less sure about concepts thought previously to be impossible. That will surely increase cognitive load, especially when one's life is pretty straightforward.
People who are fucked up and take drugs and find it tolerable because they feel less fucked up will likely always assume the same is true of others. That is likely from the effect of having low empathy for the outliers.
Risk taking is not something to advise others to practice in. It is for each and every person to evaluate their own risk tolerance and not have them influenced by those who took risks and came out the other side "for the better".
Sounds like it could be mild dissociation/depersonalization. It's not typically considered a primary effect of psilocybin, but there is a small mention here on classical psychedelics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissociative
That's interesting, because I don't that anyone really has reported these side effects and I don't believe there are any known pharmacological effects from psilocybin or psilocin that would cause any of that.
Were they dried mushrooms you ate? Do you trust the provenance of them? If they were a chocolate bar or similar, many of those do not actually have psilocybin or psilocin in them, and are instead using a variety of different research chemicals that are significantly less understood. If it was dried mushrooms, there are a variety of species that induce hallucinogenic effects through other chemicals than what you find in your usual magic mushrooms.
They might have been regular shrooms, of course - people react to things differently - but that's a different enough outcome that I wonder if it wasn't something else entirely.
While the analogies are often useful, everyone reading HN comments should be very aware and very skeptical of just how often computer/tech people rely on computer/tech analogies to understand things that are fundamentally not computers/tech.
It is very very easy for smart people with functionally specific jobs/hobbies/ways of thinking to see all reality through that narrow window. It often leads to important details being glossed over or entirely missed. The more self-confident ones quickly start seeing the analogies as fundamental facts, usually with negative consequences like loss of empathy or a tendency to see big picture generalizations as specific universal truths.
Mushrooms have had a similar effect on me at times. You can start feeling like you KNOW big sweeping Truths. Similar to religiously “knowing” something. And that feeling of knowing is hard to overcome. But it is just a feeling.
Someone when taking schrooms would always "talk to God" and would get answers but they could never remember them the next day. So one day they ensured they had a notepad around to write down the answers.
They did the trip and asked "What is the meaning of life?". When they woke up all that was written on the note pad was "walls".
It must have felt profound at the time but it was basically meaningless. And that is a lot of drugs.
I've had similar experiences on mushrooms (and high doses of marijuana too, to a lesser extent). It feels like a mix of intense awe and the the satisfactory "click" of finally understanding something to me. I'm quite sure it's more of an emotional state than "fundamental truth", or anything like that, but it sure is powerful.
Very easy to understand how mythology can build around the stuff.
> You can start feeling like you KNOW big sweeping Truths.
Yep. During a pretty bad episode of delusional schizophrenia (for lack of any better diagnosis) I had that, many years ago.
I felt like I was either on the verge of a huge epiphany or I'd just had one, for a few weeks. Every time it was nonsense or couldn't be explained.
Luckily I have not relapsed and I have been off the antipsychotics for a few years
The only permanent damage is that every medical professional says I should never do psychoactive drugs. Which sucks cause they sound fun and I wonder if they'd help me get over some other problems I have. Maybe after I've retired.
I'm convinced this is actually a symptom of using psychedelics.
Ironically, using quite a lot of anec-data, there definitely seems to be a correlation between use of psychedelics among myself/peers and how "suggestible" people are. I've seen a lot of folks go really deep in conspiracy theories (regardless of the political/social positioning), strong religious beliefs, or similar such lines-of-thought that require a "leap of faith" or reasoning-by-analogy. Overall I believe that something about taking them puts you into a state of mind that is more "open", and therefore, more "gullible" to believe that you are latching onto some profound truth or significant idea.
There are ways things can be computers that don't require the typical setup of a von Neumann architecture. Psilocybin taught me that. My education and subsequent studies confirmed that.
It can also induce a psychological break and/or acute schizophrenia and/or lasting distortions of perception, so maybe cool it with the unwarranted medical advice
Certainly they can disintegrate negative connections. Be warned however, they can also do the same with the positive ones. The chemicals used don’t care about the outcome of their use.
I was acquaintanced with a guy who had safely taken significant amounts of shrooms for years (he asserts more therapeutic reasons than recreational), having slowly tested up to ~5grams, so was seemingly in the clear are far as uncovering schizophrenia and the like. Then he took a bit more one day, he estimates about 7grams, and basically his connection with his sense of body and presence in the world became severed. Described it like being dead, but trapped in a body, unable to feel joy or relationships. This persisted for 3 years despite many attempts to resolve it. In the end he committed suicide.
While things like microdosing are definitely intriguing, my own exploration on the topic and reading many accounts has left me with the strong impression that for psilocybin, any dosage above 3grams (of dry Psilocybe cubensis) poses an unacceptable risk of negative outcomes.
As such, I strongly caution against naive exploration, and stay the hell away from higher doses. Especially since those seeking psychedelics as a treatment are much more likely to have multiple issues that increase the likelihood of severely negative outcomes. Users should also be aware that under elevated doses, self harm or harm to others becomes possible. Assaults, murders, and suicides under the influence are a reality that cannot morally just be ignored.
Which brings up another point; in general the psychedelic communities online that I’ve observed do not generally appreciate the mention of bad outcomes, to the point where they actively censor things as anti-psychedelic conspiracy. That coupled with problems in getting accurate medical data make it hard to tell the actual rate of severely negative outcomes. Those who take psychedelics have a vested interest in seeing only the good outcomes.
Do you know similar stuff about dissociatives, like NMDA-antagonists? Are their effects in any way comparable or is it completely different net results?
RamblingCTO|1 year ago
trompetenaccoun|1 year ago
I'm not fully sure regarding the last sentence though. The important thing to know for those who have never experienced it and who have issues that could come out during the trip is that you need to care A LOT about set and setting. You should have an experienced person whom you fully trust and who can guide you through the experience. Don't do it on your own when you're in a bad state, that's pretty much the worst way to take psychedelics and basically asking for the trip to go wrong. And you'll want to avoid strangers as well unless you're super extroverted maybe.
Also, and that's my personal take, don't sign up to questionable retreats or scientific studies/therapies conducted by self-proclaimed experts who have never taken it themselves. Just because someone has a degree in psychology - a questionable science to begin with when you look at all the failed attempts to replicate the findings - it doesn't mean they understand how it feels to be on a psychedelic trip.
ipaddr|1 year ago
It's not a matter of more work.
Whatever feeling you had about this chair has changed. It use to represent a memory or a feeling from childhood. That's changed or is gone for better or worse.
That's how to perceive how it works.
If you are 'fucked' because you can't move on it will help. If you feel a lack of connections to things/people it could help form new ones or reduce what you currently have.
Removing emotional memories can be scary. Removing PTSD memories can be freeing.
Grimblewald|1 year ago
This is of course not everyones story, many i know who took similar substances ended up in much worse positions.Some had even been doing the work to get better also. For the time being I think theres an element of luck, but i hope we figure out how to remove the luck component and make it a science.
The way I'd explain it Is that whatever loss function the mind uses to optimize the personality was stuck in a poor local optima and psychedellics knocked that marble right loose. There was a time i was a bit 'lost' in it all but i was able to get back on track in a reasonable timeframe and through the change in perspectove and way of thinking kept improving well past were id gotten to prior to that.
Despite what positive things i have to say about it, i wouldnt recommend it, unless it truly is your last option. i spent years with psychologists and paychiatrists prior to that. Ive seen many go down the path of the illicit and not get better but much much worse, and more that went down professional help based pathways who got better more consistently, and got worse far more rarely.
zild3d|1 year ago
Worth noting the research is on psilocybin with supportive psychotherapy, not just take some mushrooms you got from a guy and have at it.
https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news/newsroom/news-releases/...
Xen9|1 year ago
I never have had a bad trip, except for that time I took 800 mu-g GG in my tiny apartment. I became insanely restless, waking up 12 hours later trying to open the window to get to more natural environment. My lights were dropped on the floor, as well as plenty of water, broken electronics and ruined papers.
Since then I've learned to use music and earplugs; keep the windows open; have high CRI bulbs; keep lots of plants; and to never hesistate going to an ice shower when feeling like a confused and mentally stressed ape.
The level of control one wants, I believe, is roughly the same as beating a nightmare disorder with lucid dreaming. One ALSO must have familiarity with "foundations" of the world, or else they will end up doing dumb stuff with dumb beliefs. By foundations I mean sort of at least grasping that it's all arbitary and then building what you want on That.
hcks|1 year ago
What if actually your teacher was right, and they’re just dumb intoxicants that have no upside and a small chance of ruining your life?
mike_ivanov|1 year ago
See e.g.
greentxt|1 year ago
empath75|1 year ago
kjkjadksj|1 year ago
Science needs more Albert Hoffman's who are willing to couple their knowledge with this experience without fear of being fired from IRB violation and ostracized by the scientific community. Otherwise we will forever be grasping in the dark with these drugs.
lucidrains|1 year ago
progmetaldev|1 year ago
renewiltord|1 year ago
collyw|1 year ago
jkingsman|1 year ago
Essentially, the TL;DR of this study is that psilocybin's 5-HT2A agonism seems to reduce synchronized FC activity not just in neurons but the whole brain: psilocybin makes parts of the brain overall that otherwise work together (in a time-correlated sense) stop displaying time-correlation. These results were seen most in the Default Mode[1] network, which is more or less the brain system in operation when you are inside your head — daydreaming, thinking, remembering, etc. — as opposed to processing visual cues or observing the physical world.
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_functional_connectivit...
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Default_mode_network — this article is one of those that just blows my mind clean out my ears (heh); the brain is such a wonder.
jppittma|1 year ago
nikkwong|1 year ago
But what causes this change in personality? People who have done a lot of psilocybin seem to be a lot less worried, a lot less neurotic, and a lot less wrapped up in the ego than those who haven't. After all, who wants to be wrapped up and ruminating based on the content of their thoughts? I've always thought of this behavior by those who have used psilocybin to be a feature, not a bug—as if they're enlightened.
But if, say, this newfound personality is the result of a loss in functional connectivity—what does that tell us about how other markers of cognitive function have changed? Is strong FC a prerequisite for strong executive function or other measures of intelligence? The paper seems to suggest that the changes in FC are associated with the default mode network and maybe not other states of brain focus.
But will a macro dose of psilocybin, say—make someone better at their job? Maybe we don't know yet, and maybe there won't be a clear answer; there is a lot of heterogeneity in the way people think, and how they exploit their own cognitive abilities to provide value in the world—so maybe a loss in FC will mean different things to different individauls. But given the suggestion from this paper that the effects of psilocybin may be somewhat permanent, the answer to this question will be a very useful for those looking to benefit from this therapeutic.
motohagiography|1 year ago
Don't be disappointed about it not being another spiritual dimension, they discovered we literally have effects pedals for our brains. This is the coolest thing ever. We could probably classify hallucinogenic artifacts by chorus, delay, flange, harmonics...
cmehdy|1 year ago
l33tbro|1 year ago
animal531|1 year ago
Their conclusion in that paper is that Propofol derails the brain’s normal balance between stability and excitability, which induces unconsciousness.
sowut|1 year ago
worik|1 year ago
Oh yeah!
But what does that mean?
antegamisou|1 year ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MKUltra
TechDebtDevin|1 year ago
While I've had trips since then and do get benefits from those experiences. People without experience should be careful, especially if you have a history of mental illness. He did have a history to some degree but not overtly.
core_dumped|1 year ago
His mood post trip became increasingly abysmal. He became highly paranoid, and started questioning the loyalty of the people close to him like his family. I now know that this was a sign of possible schizophrenia. I now know that dementia runs in his family. He started creating simplistic yet disturbing paintings. I wish I still had them.
This happened in March of 2020, COVID had just become a national concern. I was dating long distance at the time and she wanted me to come up before the airports closed down. Sometimes I regret going. I wish he had gone somewhere so he wasn’t alone. He ended up shooting himself with his grandfathers rifle.
I guess the lesson here is be cautious with drugs that can accelerate mental illnesses if you have a family history of them. Check up on your friends that have bad trips and seem kinda off.
kjkjadksj|1 year ago
ddingus|1 year ago
I have a lost one too, but due to a different cause. He took hard drugs he was dealing to pay off a house after a legislative decision basically eliminated his well paying job. We grew up very much do what it fucking takes kind of people. And we were tested in life more than once. I still draw from that time today, sometimes remembering and finding that which will get me through. I miss him terribly.
Had he not used, he would have made it! We talked about that, and he used "a little" to know better what he was dealing. Now we all make choices and he made his. At the time, financially, it was understandable, though I would have chosen differently myself.
Anyhow... hard lessons!
Lost him in my very early 30's and I think of him regularly, as I am sure you do yours. What got him was the loss of autonomous breathing! Yes, right out of Greek mythos, he suddenly had to breathe consciously after a particularly nasty interaction with some of the product and his physiology.
It truly was a curse. Bit by bit, he lost the fight. Was cruel and hard to watch.
Sidebar: I am angered and lament the timing because I very strongly feel some form of electrical stimulation could have helped. I lacked means at the time. We both really wanted to try. Doctors had nothing.
End sidebar.
These drugs have awesome potential, but they also come with considerably greater risks than many of us know too.
Good PSA. Seconded.
Be careful peeps. We think we understand. Fact is we just don't yet.
And that will improve with proper study using the scientific method.
If you ask me, cutting those risks is the single most powerful argument for permitting ongoing research and study of the powerful things left for us in Mother Natures kitchen.
devwastaken|1 year ago
Pharma is responsible for suppressing knowledge and proper medical treatments. They're letting people die so the fear sets their patented drugs in stone. It has worked very well for them.
There is a plethora of information on the net on how to start safely, if at all, and why most people should not use psychedelics at all. Set and setting are just as important as the dosage.
INTPenis|1 year ago
TaylorAlexander|1 year ago
And we should absolutely continue research to learn more about the adverse effects. Obviously they help a lot of people, but must be done with care and seem not to be helpful for every person. We must learn more about these conditions.
chiefalchemist|1 year ago
Book and the Netflix series.
https://www.netflix.com/title/80229847?preventIntent=true
jeremiahbuckley|1 year ago
observationist https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=observationist original comment:
Around 1% of people have schizophrenia. This holds over a lifetime - there's a structural, unavoidable component to the person's neural wiring or physiology that will result in a schizophrenic break. Prior to the break, they may seem more or less normal, but after, they will experience deficits in cognition and perception, and may have significant barriers to living a normal life. Schizophrenics, as a rule, will have a psychotic break before they turn 45. Psychoactive substances, and high doses of psychedelics, will trigger breaks from reality earlier than they might otherwise happen. Stress, caffeine, trauma, or significant excitement can also be triggers, but psychedelic drug trips are a reliable trigger, and in conjunction with other effects, can spiral a "bad trip" into a much worse trauma.
Another 3 to 4% of the population have significant mental disorders, ranging from those we know, to those we can observe but don't have a good diagnostic criteria for. In these cases, it can be very detrimental to use psychoactive substances generally, and psychedelics in particular.
It's crucial to visit with a doctor to rule out the likelihood that you're in the roughly one in twenty people that might have a significant negative reaction to psychedelics. Some of the people in that camp might be safe from harm later in life. I know a person with significant family history of schizophrenia and earlier life indicators he was at risk, who then started using mushrooms in his 50s and seems very stable. He talked things over with his doctors before deciding to take the risk - apparently after you turn 45 it's incredibly rare, even with significant trauma and stressors, for schizophrenic breaks to occur, so if that's your main threat, it might be safe to engage in psychedelics when you're older.
If you're not in the high risk camp, you should still have at least one frank discussion with your doctor about pitfalls, and do a metric ton of personal research about any substance you intend to use. It can be a profound and wonderful departure from the norm, or a mildly unpleasant experience, or a stressful confrontation with your inner demons, depending on the dose and preparation.
my response:
Thank you for this. I thought this was a very informative comment; I am worried about schizophrenia as a disease that might impact my kids. I wanted to ask you for more information, but that is a burden, so I asked ChatGPT instead so at least you wouldn't have to go find links. If you have Other reading besides what is below I would be happy to hear about it.
Here is it's response from ChatGPT (Claude couldn't provide links). My contribution is that I checked the links and skimmed them to see if they supported the statement. They are repetitive (there are only 7 articles linked actually), but they generally support your comment. Of note the PLOS article does not support your comment, and it seems that it doesn't support what ChatGPT says (maybe I misunderstood when skimming it). The stuff in parens below (Looks Like This), was a link in ChatGPT, but the links didn't copy-paste, so I'm going to put all the articles at the top here:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-023-02138-4
https://bmcpsychiatry.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12...
https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/schizophren...
https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/statistics/schizophrenia
https://www.psychiatrictimes.com/view/drug-psychosis-may-pul...
https://psychedelics.berkeley.edu/qa/understanding-your-risk...
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...
The comment you saw online contains some accurate points but also could benefit from additional context and nuance based on available research.
1. Prevalence and Risk Factors of Schizophrenia:
- The lifetime prevalence of schizophrenia is approximately 0.3% to 0.7% globally, which supports the 1% figure as an upper bound (Nature) (BioMed Central) (World Health Organization (WHO)) .
- Schizophrenia typically emerges in late adolescence to early thirties, with men often experiencing onset earlier than women (National Institute of Mental Health) (World Health Organization (WHO)) .
- Factors such as genetic predisposition, prenatal exposures, and psychosocial stressors contribute to the risk of developing schizophrenia (National Institute of Mental Health) (World Health Organization (WHO)) .
2. Triggers for Psychotic Breaks:
- The statement that high doses of psychedelics can trigger psychotic breaks in predisposed individuals is supported by evidence. Drug-induced psychosis, particularly from hallucinogens and cannabis, can lead to schizophrenia in some cases (Psychiatric Times) .
- Other triggers include stress, trauma, and significant life changes, which can exacerbate underlying vulnerabilities (Berkeley Psychedelics) .
3. Impact of Psychedelics on Mental Health:
- Psychedelics can pose significant risks for individuals with a family history of schizophrenia or other major mental health disorders. It is crucial for these individuals to consult healthcare professionals before considering psychedelic use (Berkeley Psychedelics) .
- Research has shown that about 25% of those with substance-induced psychosis may transition to schizophrenia, with the type of substance being a significant predictor of this transition (Psychiatric Times) .
4. General Mental Health Considerations:
- Around 3-4% of the population may experience significant mental disorders other than schizophrenia. For these individuals, the use of psychoactive substances, including psychedelics, can be particularly detrimental (PLOS) . [NOTE: This seems to be an error from ChatGPT, this PLOS article doesn't seem to support this conclusion. As I haven't done personal work on this yet, I don't know whether the statement is supported by other research.]
- Mental health evaluation and professional consultation are recommended before the use of psychedelics to identify potential risks and ensure safety (Berkeley Psychedelics) .
5. Later-Life Considerations:
- The risk of new-onset schizophrenia after the age of 45 is indeed rare, which suggests that older individuals may have a lower risk of experiencing a first psychotic episode triggered by psychedelics (Berkeley Psychedelics) .
For further reading and to deepen your understanding, you may refer to sources like the National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH), the World Health Organization (WHO), and recent research studies on the global burden and risk factors of schizophrenia (National Institute of Mental Health) (World Health Organization (WHO)) (Nature) . Additionally, the Berkeley Center for the Science of Psychedelics (BCSP) provides detailed information on the safety and risks associated with psychedelic use (Berkeley Psychedelics) .
jojobas|1 year ago
JohnMakin|1 year ago
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lawlessone|1 year ago
Not simultaneously I hope.. that sounds like it would be a rough ride
brotchie|1 year ago
So 25mg is ~1.5g of dried mushrooms.
Decent dose, but not a "omg I'm one with the universe."
For instance, a "Hero Dose" typically starts at 5g of dried mushrooms, so ~3x the dosage used in the study.
Though it's possible the uptake rate using their dosing mechanism is much higher than "stomach acid digested dried mushrooms."
titanomachy|1 year ago
jkingsman|1 year ago
Unbefleckt|1 year ago
Throwing this in here as there are a fair few "dude just take drugs" comments and worry they might be the religious types.
loa_in_|1 year ago
kordlessagain|1 year ago
Risk taking is not something to advise others to practice in. It is for each and every person to evaluate their own risk tolerance and not have them influenced by those who took risks and came out the other side "for the better".
lamp_book|1 year ago
cthalupa|1 year ago
Were they dried mushrooms you ate? Do you trust the provenance of them? If they were a chocolate bar or similar, many of those do not actually have psilocybin or psilocin in them, and are instead using a variety of different research chemicals that are significantly less understood. If it was dried mushrooms, there are a variety of species that induce hallucinogenic effects through other chemicals than what you find in your usual magic mushrooms.
They might have been regular shrooms, of course - people react to things differently - but that's a different enough outcome that I wonder if it wasn't something else entirely.
philip1209|1 year ago
I know some tech people have been donating to psilocybin research - is there any apparent connection to this study?
jdietrich|1 year ago
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-024-07624-5#Ack1
unknown|1 year ago
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jiveturkey|1 year ago
jkingsman|1 year ago
mdrzn|1 year ago
notnaut|1 year ago
It is very very easy for smart people with functionally specific jobs/hobbies/ways of thinking to see all reality through that narrow window. It often leads to important details being glossed over or entirely missed. The more self-confident ones quickly start seeing the analogies as fundamental facts, usually with negative consequences like loss of empathy or a tendency to see big picture generalizations as specific universal truths.
Mushrooms have had a similar effect on me at times. You can start feeling like you KNOW big sweeping Truths. Similar to religiously “knowing” something. And that feeling of knowing is hard to overcome. But it is just a feeling.
DaoVeles|1 year ago
Someone when taking schrooms would always "talk to God" and would get answers but they could never remember them the next day. So one day they ensured they had a notepad around to write down the answers.
They did the trip and asked "What is the meaning of life?". When they woke up all that was written on the note pad was "walls".
It must have felt profound at the time but it was basically meaningless. And that is a lot of drugs.
bubblyworld|1 year ago
Very easy to understand how mythology can build around the stuff.
itronitron|1 year ago
01HNNWZ0MV43FF|1 year ago
Yep. During a pretty bad episode of delusional schizophrenia (for lack of any better diagnosis) I had that, many years ago.
I felt like I was either on the verge of a huge epiphany or I'd just had one, for a few weeks. Every time it was nonsense or couldn't be explained.
Luckily I have not relapsed and I have been off the antipsychotics for a few years
The only permanent damage is that every medical professional says I should never do psychoactive drugs. Which sucks cause they sound fun and I wonder if they'd help me get over some other problems I have. Maybe after I've retired.
codr7|1 year ago
It's unconscious knowledge; maybe not ready to hit the surface yet, but still actively affecting your life from within.
Whatever glimpses you get is just what you're capable of dealing with atm. Everybody's experience is different.
throwaway_82467|1 year ago
Ironically, using quite a lot of anec-data, there definitely seems to be a correlation between use of psychedelics among myself/peers and how "suggestible" people are. I've seen a lot of folks go really deep in conspiracy theories (regardless of the political/social positioning), strong religious beliefs, or similar such lines-of-thought that require a "leap of faith" or reasoning-by-analogy. Overall I believe that something about taking them puts you into a state of mind that is more "open", and therefore, more "gullible" to believe that you are latching onto some profound truth or significant idea.
mistermann|1 year ago
Culture and science are also powerful benders of reality.
uoaei|1 year ago
vsuperpower2021|1 year ago
[deleted]
poikroequ|1 year ago
trallnag|1 year ago
kinakomochidayo|1 year ago
Mushrooms are much gentler and forgiving than LSD when it comes to traumas.
GuB-42|1 year ago
jklinger410|1 year ago
[deleted]
bruce343434|1 year ago
Modified3019|1 year ago
I was acquaintanced with a guy who had safely taken significant amounts of shrooms for years (he asserts more therapeutic reasons than recreational), having slowly tested up to ~5grams, so was seemingly in the clear are far as uncovering schizophrenia and the like. Then he took a bit more one day, he estimates about 7grams, and basically his connection with his sense of body and presence in the world became severed. Described it like being dead, but trapped in a body, unable to feel joy or relationships. This persisted for 3 years despite many attempts to resolve it. In the end he committed suicide.
While things like microdosing are definitely intriguing, my own exploration on the topic and reading many accounts has left me with the strong impression that for psilocybin, any dosage above 3grams (of dry Psilocybe cubensis) poses an unacceptable risk of negative outcomes.
As such, I strongly caution against naive exploration, and stay the hell away from higher doses. Especially since those seeking psychedelics as a treatment are much more likely to have multiple issues that increase the likelihood of severely negative outcomes. Users should also be aware that under elevated doses, self harm or harm to others becomes possible. Assaults, murders, and suicides under the influence are a reality that cannot morally just be ignored.
Which brings up another point; in general the psychedelic communities online that I’ve observed do not generally appreciate the mention of bad outcomes, to the point where they actively censor things as anti-psychedelic conspiracy. That coupled with problems in getting accurate medical data make it hard to tell the actual rate of severely negative outcomes. Those who take psychedelics have a vested interest in seeing only the good outcomes.
herodoturtle|1 year ago
I must ask, is this based on scientific evidence?
Obscurity4340|1 year ago
unknown|1 year ago
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trumps-ear-bug|1 year ago