Ex-VFX guy here again. I feel like I have to comment on these threads because I'm thrilled to see 35mm film die.[1] The DRM sucks but....
> There are instances in the US already where some studios are refusing to freight 35mm film prints to cinemas.
Yeah, because it's crazy expensive. It costs ~$1500 to strike and ship a 35mm print[2]. Also, did you know that prints are delivered by some specialized delivery company? They're not just shipped around by FedEx. I can't remember the name of the company right now.
This incident sucks for them but I feel like this move to digital is great for the environment and a better moviegoing experience. I love the rock-solid picture with awesome contrast, and not to mention the lack of nasty chemical process in order to create it.
The issues mentioned in the blog sound very fixable. How hard could it be to allow a few minutes of unconstrained grace period from the beginning of the movie? That would take care of ensuring the projector works properly.
It should also be straightforward to offer functionality that verifies if the digital key is valid before the show starts.
I would not be surprised if those options already exist and they simply did not know how to use it.
I work for a group of venues that recently opened a film screening room that can handle almost all digital formats, 16mm, and 35mm prints. And we in fact ship our prints almost exclusively by FedEx. I had to take a canister to the local shop on a dolly just the other day.
Though, they are super expensive to ship. Maybe it's a regional thing, the delivery? Here in Mass you need to be a licensed projectionist due to the flammability.
You don't think there's a place for it in smaller / specialized venues for some time? It makes sense for mainstream Hollywood not to bother with it anymore, but I for one would appreciate to be able to see Bela Tarr on 35mm or Antonioni on 70mm again. I know many of these older prints are passed around too rather than struck per showing.
This is fighting piracy on the wrong level.
Some people must be so afraid that someone could copy their "work" that they put a chain on the most trusted place.
The KDM unlocks the content of the file and allows the cinema to play the film. It is time sensitive and often is only valid from around 10 minutes prior to the screening time and expiring as close to 5 minutes after the scheduled time.
This made me shiver... no delays allowed at all. I dont want to know how many employees got bitten by that.
As others have said, this seems to be the perfect place to fight piracy. At present time most movies do not have high quality releases until the blu-ray discs are manufactured. When a movie goes to blu-ray 720p and 1080p copies are instantly released online. Having those movies available online opening weekend, if not before opening weekend, could be disastrous.
Well, to be fair, if someone found a way to pirate straight from the projector that would be a pretty high quality copy floating around.
It also strikes me that this allows distributors to control for unreported screenings, which allowed for unreported income. Probably not as common as it was way back when, but certainly possible.
My experience is that the only time a key unlocks the movie only 10 minutes prior to the screening is for previews. Usually the keys are valid for about a week.
BTW, the screen servers will show when a accepted KDM unlocks a feature and for how long it's valid. I have never seen a KDM that is accepted by the screen server and then "doesn't work".
The DCI security specification was modeled explicitly to "control lightly, audit tightly" - exactly because technical problems would cause a lot of trouble to the cinemas.
Seems like this philosophy has not prevailed in the actual implementation...
The [DRM key] arrives as an email zip attachment that then needs to be unzipped, saved onto a memory stick and uploaded onto the server.
Seriously? That's how we're delivering time-sensitive digital information? In 2012? Ugh, it makes my head spin.
Is there some reason that the projector can't be connected to the network directly, so the vendor can push the key straight to it without all the sneakernet nonsense?
Live by the sword, die by the sword. If you ask a bunch of hackers how to make a mission-critical application secure, one of the top answers is going to be 'air gap.' In economic terms, security has greater value (to the publishers) than the mild inconvenience of a few shows starting late.
Honestly what I love about this fact is that if there's an email delay the movie doesn't play. And if someone learns how to set the clocks back, it no longer matters that it's time sensitive!
I think the limiting factor is that (crazily enough) it's hard to get internet to a lot of the places that projectors are located. Internet seems ubiquitous to us in houses/apartments but it's apparently hard to get it when your theater is in the middle of a mall or in some old building.
I believe there's a push to start distributing the encrypted films over satellite but that has its own problems because now many theaters have to start negotiating "roof rights" with their landlords.
I worked with the Tech crew in my high school theater department for a couple of years. There we explicitly removed network connectivity from from the sound/lighting computer to increase stability.
Plenty of theaters have no internet connection. Offices are usually somewhere else, there are not employees or patrons that would benefit internet access. So now they have to add an ISP with network wiring to every booth? Seems a silly waste of cost, plus leading to the inevitable "now we can remote disable your projector if we feel the need."
This is already happening. The company I work for deliver services that push both KDMs and DCPs (features, trailers advertisement) to Theatre Management Systems (TMS) and screen servers.
This is why I love analog, and not just in the sense of "I'm an old fart and old things are better" (though I'm sure there's a good dose of that), but because there's a whole spectrum between "working" and "not working".
(Environmental issues aside, that is -- I recognize that the chemicals needed to manufacture and develop traditional film are pretty nasty.)
With digital, if it works, it's 100%, which is great, but if it doesn't work, it's 0%, and that can make it hard to even get a grip on what the problem is or which direction to go to find a solution. (DRM just makes this worse.) I've got some weird routing to my TV because the obvious HDMI connection doesn't work, and how do you troubleshoot that?
I once went to a theatre where the projectionist came out and announced that they had just broken a lens (apparently they had the largest lenses in town at the time) and couldn't project the film as they wanted to. They offered a refund, but for those who stayed, let us vote on what to do: use a smaller lens and see the film normally but smaller, or use the proper size lens but put up with 3-4 minute pauses every 20 minutes. Everyone stayed, and we chose the latter (who wants to see a small movie in a theatre?), and I don't think it was the wrong choice, but I learned that changeovers are not like commercial breaks: some of them are in really inconvenient places in the film, plot-wise!
That's a situation that could never happen with a new digital projection system. The odd thing is that even though we groaned at how poorly-timed the changeovers were, in my mind the whole event is an overwhelmingly positive memory. I learned something about how projection systems work, and we got to interact with the projectionist, and it was a unique movie night we got to talk about, and I even enjoyed the movie still. We sometimes act as though the only goal of cinema is to reproduce every pixel and soundwave perfectly, but my most enjoyable movie experiences don't correlate to that, and in this case is almost the polar opposite.
I once went to a theatre where the projectionist came out and announced that they had just broken a lens (apparently they had the largest lenses in town at the time) and couldn't project the film as they wanted to. They offered a refund, but for those who stayed, let us vote on what to do: use a smaller lens and see the film normally but smaller, or use the proper size lens but put up with 3-4 minute pauses every 20 minutes. Everyone stayed, and we chose the latter (who wants to see a small movie in a theatre?), and I don't think it was the wrong choice, but I learned that changeovers are not like commercial breaks: some of them are in really inconvenient places in the film, plot-wise!
I might be misunderstanding something about cinema projection, but how does a broken lens lead to 20-minute segmentation? The only things I can think of are perhaps it has some sort of cooling mechanism (I know the bulbs do emit massive quantities of heat) that needed a chance to cool off, or they were somehow playing it on a different projector which couldn't handle a full film-reel?
Certainly a more interesting experience than the few glitches I've encountered including "Yes, we know you've been complaining since the 3rd minute of playback that we had the aspect ratio wrong, but we're only going to fix it now, 70% of the way through the film"
> the projectionist can’t test to see if the KDM works or that the quality of the film is right before show time
This seems like a simple and critical feature. If the distributor wishes to impose these extreme constraints on the projectionist, then the projectionist needs to know its going to work well in advance. The projectionist shouldn't even need to be in the room when the movie starts.
I've run into this pattern a lot in web development. If you want a feature to go live at 6:00pm, you don't release it at 5:59pm and just hope it works. You program it to go automatically flip at 6:00pm and release the code early. The pre-programmed time can be overridden in the production environment, so you can easily test and know for sure (or as close as possible to sure) whether it will flip at 6:00pm or not.
(I'm not saying my solution is perfect, just better than the naive solution.)
Except that in this case, you can't test. The only way to test is to load the movie, load a key and play the movie. No key? No movie, and no test. In addition, there is no way the distributor will let you have a "test" key. One of those would be manna from heaven for any unsavory projectionist who wanted to make high quality copies from theater prints.
Actually this is a better situation than getting a bad reel or worse not receiving the movie at all the day or two before release on film.
I used to manage a theatre and sometimes had issues (more often re-releases than new releases) for instance our copy of Pulp Fiction was missing a reel, had to wait days for another one to ship rather than just making a call. Sometimes movies came reeled backwards, missing reels, missing entire canisters with multiple reels, scratched reels etc. Digital removes all those distribution problems (and that is some heavy material). And not to mention the times when a platter would break and drop the entire film on the ground every now and again. I'd say digital has less problems.
I did have fun building movies on Thursday nights and watching them for quality but digital is much better in terms of distribution. The reel feeling will be missed though.
Hollywood's lack of trust in anybody will be the doom of the cinema, so they need to tread carefully here. If going to the cinema (differentiating that from the megaplex) means crap like this, the cinema will die. When enthusiasts are pushed away, the lifeblood dies.
If your fervent supporters lose faith, you are in trouble.
What I’d really like to leave you with here is the essence of how last night made us feel: the industry is shifting – not only its medium, not only its focus, but with it – and most significantly for theatres like us – it’s shifting the element of control. We’re in relationship with you, our audience, but it seems to me as though someone is trying to break us up.
So much of the problem with DRM, and the weirdness of copyright-based business models, is not logistic ("I want to watch the Matrix in HD now!") but aesthetic, artistic, moral: it feels wrong on a basic human level to thread your engagement with the culture through a maze of technical, legal, bureaucratic obeisance.
I've decided, personally, to do my best not to violate IP laws, because I don't want the moral hazard of arguing against a law while financially benefiting from violating it. I want my vision clear. But I can say with clear vision that there's something inhuman and anti-human about the scenario described in the article, and I hope we find a better way.
I hate DRM and hope it dies, but I can't support the authors love of physical films. It strikes me as too much like hipster luddistism, and failing to see the disadvantages of physical reels.
Remember this cinema is in Melbourne, Australia. Australians (like the rest of the non-US world) are sick of delays in films being released. Piracy has done a bit to help get rid of the stupid regional delays (Matrix №2 was released at the same time globally). Digital film distribution would do wonders to help the Aussie cinema industry!
On the one hand, digital distribution has many advantages over film distribution, but I can't help but feel it's being rushed when it's not quite ready.
DRM muck-ups like this are, of course a problem. However, the quality of the product isn't up to snuff yet either. e.g. Digital IMAX is terrible. The whole point of the IMAX format is to project a massive image with incredible detail. It's supposed to feel more real because so much of your peripheral vision is engaged while you're still able to focus in on one spot and see very fine detail. Digital IMAX gets the size right, but the detail is lacking. In every digital IMAX theater I've been in I was able to see individual pixels on the screen. This of course, leads to all sorts of digital artifacts like shimmering (especially noticeable during credit crawls).
IMax film is still breath-taking and superior to anything digital. I hope it sticks around in at least some theaters until digital IMAX gets its act together. I also hope to see some of the great 70mm classics (e.g. Lawrence of Arabia) on film before it's too late.
> the industry is shifting – not only its medium, not only its focus, but with it – and most significantly for theatres like us – it’s shifting the element of control
That's a bingo. Like with so many things DRM, where rights are no longer balanced and only the concerns of one side, the DRM-issuing side are ever taken into account, this is a power-grab.
Totally interesting insight into the cinema world. My only questions is why they waited so late to test if the film would play? (I am sure there is a technical reason.)
FTA: "The KDM unlocks the content of the file and allows the cinema to play the film. It is time sensitive and often is only valid from around 10 minutes prior to the screening ..."
Without the KDM being unlocked they can't test it, so the earliest opportunity is 10 minutes before the screening.
The story links to an "https" URL, which is odd for several reasons,
1. Since when does a blog need to be secure?
2. The certificate is issued to "*.wordpress.com", which is useless. Each subdomain under wordpress.com should have a distinct certificate since they have a distinct author. The certificate should be specific to the author, not the host.
- I realize it is not realistic to assign unique IP addresses to each wordpress.com subdomain. I just don't like it.
3. The page loads insecure content from gravatar.com and googleservices.com, which throws up annoying errors.
Certificates don't go with "authors", they go with domains. They are only (!) a promise that some grown up at a cert factory decided that the admin of the host you are connecting to was the proper owner of that domain.
Now sure, there might be value in having per-subdomain certs in wordpress (though that would be rather complicated for wordpress to administer). But there's nothing wrong with that wildcard cert -- it provides proof that you've reached a blog hosted at wordpress, and not a MitM ready to lift your account password when you try to leave a comment.
Mixing insecure content makes it stupid, but as someone who uses https on my blog, it comes down to why not to use it. For the time being there's no reason, especially when Gandi give free certificates with a domain.
The one quirk is that I'll always have to have something to redirect to unsecured should traffic ever get so high it becomes an issue. Although I certainly don't expect that any time soon.
[+] [-] trimbo|13 years ago|reply
> There are instances in the US already where some studios are refusing to freight 35mm film prints to cinemas.
Yeah, because it's crazy expensive. It costs ~$1500 to strike and ship a 35mm print[2]. Also, did you know that prints are delivered by some specialized delivery company? They're not just shipped around by FedEx. I can't remember the name of the company right now.
This incident sucks for them but I feel like this move to digital is great for the environment and a better moviegoing experience. I love the rock-solid picture with awesome contrast, and not to mention the lack of nasty chemical process in order to create it.
[1] - My original comment on "RIP Movie Camera": http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3114120
[2] - http://www.laweekly.com/2012-04-12/film-tv/35-mm-film-digita...
[+] [-] speleding|13 years ago|reply
It should also be straightforward to offer functionality that verifies if the digital key is valid before the show starts.
I would not be surprised if those options already exist and they simply did not know how to use it.
[+] [-] cdcarter|13 years ago|reply
Though, they are super expensive to ship. Maybe it's a regional thing, the delivery? Here in Mass you need to be a licensed projectionist due to the flammability.
[+] [-] wahnfrieden|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kleiba|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] spdy|13 years ago|reply
The KDM unlocks the content of the file and allows the cinema to play the film. It is time sensitive and often is only valid from around 10 minutes prior to the screening time and expiring as close to 5 minutes after the scheduled time.
This made me shiver... no delays allowed at all. I dont want to know how many employees got bitten by that.
[+] [-] forrestthewoods|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] waterlesscloud|13 years ago|reply
It also strikes me that this allows distributors to control for unreported screenings, which allowed for unreported income. Probably not as common as it was way back when, but certainly possible.
[+] [-] Thlom|13 years ago|reply
BTW, the screen servers will show when a accepted KDM unlocks a feature and for how long it's valid. I have never seen a KDM that is accepted by the screen server and then "doesn't work".
[+] [-] protomyth|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] raphman|13 years ago|reply
Seems like this philosophy has not prevailed in the actual implementation...
[+] [-] smacktoward|13 years ago|reply
The [DRM key] arrives as an email zip attachment that then needs to be unzipped, saved onto a memory stick and uploaded onto the server.
Seriously? That's how we're delivering time-sensitive digital information? In 2012? Ugh, it makes my head spin.
Is there some reason that the projector can't be connected to the network directly, so the vendor can push the key straight to it without all the sneakernet nonsense?
[+] [-] anigbrowl|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] simcop2387|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] __david__|13 years ago|reply
I believe there's a push to start distributing the encrypted films over satellite but that has its own problems because now many theaters have to start negotiating "roof rights" with their landlords.
[+] [-] onedognight|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gizmo720|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] abruzzi|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Thlom|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|13 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] ken|13 years ago|reply
(Environmental issues aside, that is -- I recognize that the chemicals needed to manufacture and develop traditional film are pretty nasty.)
With digital, if it works, it's 100%, which is great, but if it doesn't work, it's 0%, and that can make it hard to even get a grip on what the problem is or which direction to go to find a solution. (DRM just makes this worse.) I've got some weird routing to my TV because the obvious HDMI connection doesn't work, and how do you troubleshoot that?
I once went to a theatre where the projectionist came out and announced that they had just broken a lens (apparently they had the largest lenses in town at the time) and couldn't project the film as they wanted to. They offered a refund, but for those who stayed, let us vote on what to do: use a smaller lens and see the film normally but smaller, or use the proper size lens but put up with 3-4 minute pauses every 20 minutes. Everyone stayed, and we chose the latter (who wants to see a small movie in a theatre?), and I don't think it was the wrong choice, but I learned that changeovers are not like commercial breaks: some of them are in really inconvenient places in the film, plot-wise!
That's a situation that could never happen with a new digital projection system. The odd thing is that even though we groaned at how poorly-timed the changeovers were, in my mind the whole event is an overwhelmingly positive memory. I learned something about how projection systems work, and we got to interact with the projectionist, and it was a unique movie night we got to talk about, and I even enjoyed the movie still. We sometimes act as though the only goal of cinema is to reproduce every pixel and soundwave perfectly, but my most enjoyable movie experiences don't correlate to that, and in this case is almost the polar opposite.
I suppose I'm a bit weird like that.
[+] [-] shabble|13 years ago|reply
I might be misunderstanding something about cinema projection, but how does a broken lens lead to 20-minute segmentation? The only things I can think of are perhaps it has some sort of cooling mechanism (I know the bulbs do emit massive quantities of heat) that needed a chance to cool off, or they were somehow playing it on a different projector which couldn't handle a full film-reel?
Certainly a more interesting experience than the few glitches I've encountered including "Yes, we know you've been complaining since the 3rd minute of playback that we had the aspect ratio wrong, but we're only going to fix it now, 70% of the way through the film"
[+] [-] tantalor|13 years ago|reply
This seems like a simple and critical feature. If the distributor wishes to impose these extreme constraints on the projectionist, then the projectionist needs to know its going to work well in advance. The projectionist shouldn't even need to be in the room when the movie starts.
I've run into this pattern a lot in web development. If you want a feature to go live at 6:00pm, you don't release it at 5:59pm and just hope it works. You program it to go automatically flip at 6:00pm and release the code early. The pre-programmed time can be overridden in the production environment, so you can easily test and know for sure (or as close as possible to sure) whether it will flip at 6:00pm or not.
(I'm not saying my solution is perfect, just better than the naive solution.)
[+] [-] quanticle|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] drawkbox|13 years ago|reply
I used to manage a theatre and sometimes had issues (more often re-releases than new releases) for instance our copy of Pulp Fiction was missing a reel, had to wait days for another one to ship rather than just making a call. Sometimes movies came reeled backwards, missing reels, missing entire canisters with multiple reels, scratched reels etc. Digital removes all those distribution problems (and that is some heavy material). And not to mention the times when a platter would break and drop the entire film on the ground every now and again. I'd say digital has less problems.
I did have fun building movies on Thursday nights and watching them for quality but digital is much better in terms of distribution. The reel feeling will be missed though.
[+] [-] SoftwareMaven|13 years ago|reply
If your fervent supporters lose faith, you are in trouble.
[+] [-] JackC|13 years ago|reply
What I’d really like to leave you with here is the essence of how last night made us feel: the industry is shifting – not only its medium, not only its focus, but with it – and most significantly for theatres like us – it’s shifting the element of control. We’re in relationship with you, our audience, but it seems to me as though someone is trying to break us up.
So much of the problem with DRM, and the weirdness of copyright-based business models, is not logistic ("I want to watch the Matrix in HD now!") but aesthetic, artistic, moral: it feels wrong on a basic human level to thread your engagement with the culture through a maze of technical, legal, bureaucratic obeisance.
I've decided, personally, to do my best not to violate IP laws, because I don't want the moral hazard of arguing against a law while financially benefiting from violating it. I want my vision clear. But I can say with clear vision that there's something inhuman and anti-human about the scenario described in the article, and I hope we find a better way.
[+] [-] rmc|13 years ago|reply
Remember this cinema is in Melbourne, Australia. Australians (like the rest of the non-US world) are sick of delays in films being released. Piracy has done a bit to help get rid of the stupid regional delays (Matrix №2 was released at the same time globally). Digital film distribution would do wonders to help the Aussie cinema industry!
[+] [-] beloch|13 years ago|reply
DRM muck-ups like this are, of course a problem. However, the quality of the product isn't up to snuff yet either. e.g. Digital IMAX is terrible. The whole point of the IMAX format is to project a massive image with incredible detail. It's supposed to feel more real because so much of your peripheral vision is engaged while you're still able to focus in on one spot and see very fine detail. Digital IMAX gets the size right, but the detail is lacking. In every digital IMAX theater I've been in I was able to see individual pixels on the screen. This of course, leads to all sorts of digital artifacts like shimmering (especially noticeable during credit crawls).
IMax film is still breath-taking and superior to anything digital. I hope it sticks around in at least some theaters until digital IMAX gets its act together. I also hope to see some of the great 70mm classics (e.g. Lawrence of Arabia) on film before it's too late.
[+] [-] cdooh|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] megablast|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ropers|13 years ago|reply
That's a bingo. Like with so many things DRM, where rights are no longer balanced and only the concerns of one side, the DRM-issuing side are ever taken into account, this is a power-grab.
[+] [-] sparknlaunch|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lambada|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tantalor|13 years ago|reply
1. Since when does a blog need to be secure?
2. The certificate is issued to "*.wordpress.com", which is useless. Each subdomain under wordpress.com should have a distinct certificate since they have a distinct author. The certificate should be specific to the author, not the host.
- I realize it is not realistic to assign unique IP addresses to each wordpress.com subdomain. I just don't like it.
3. The page loads insecure content from gravatar.com and googleservices.com, which throws up annoying errors.
[+] [-] ajross|13 years ago|reply
Now sure, there might be value in having per-subdomain certs in wordpress (though that would be rather complicated for wordpress to administer). But there's nothing wrong with that wildcard cert -- it provides proof that you've reached a blog hosted at wordpress, and not a MitM ready to lift your account password when you try to leave a comment.
[+] [-] 46Bit|13 years ago|reply
The one quirk is that I'll always have to have something to redirect to unsecured should traffic ever get so high it becomes an issue. Although I certainly don't expect that any time soon.
[+] [-] mwilcox|13 years ago|reply