[jessetemp]

I think what’s going on behind the verbal sleight of hand here, is focusing on the process (quest) instead of the outcome (goal). It’s the difference between doing a thing and having done a thing. I might enjoy having written a book, but I don’t think I would enjoy writing a book. And I don’t think calling it a quest instead of a goal would make much difference

[dclowd9901]

I think about this a lot. I think my dad was more goal oriented and I’m more process oriented. I see every day spent working toward a goal as a valuable step toward it, while I think he tried to always shorten the path to reach his goals, and ended up not ever achieving them because of it.

As an example, I do car restoration as a hobby. It’s a big, big task to basically dismantle a car, fix body issues, rebuild the engine and transmission, clean up all the parts, and put it back together. Looking at the entire task outside of it, seems almost impossible to do, but I almost never think about the end of the work. I just think about the next thing I need to do.

I think marathon runners do something similar, or so I’ve heard anecdotally.

[samvher]

“...it's like this. Sometimes, when you've a very long street ahead of you, you think how terribly long it is and feel sure you'll never get it swept. And then you start to hurry. You work faster and faster and every time you look up there seems to be just as much left to sweep as before, and you try even harder, and you panic, and in the end you're out of breath and have to stop--and still the street stretches away in front of you. That's not the way to do it.

You must never think of the whole street at once, understand? You must only concentrate on the next step, the next breath, the next stroke of the broom, and the next, and the next. Nothing else.

That way you enjoy your work, which is important, because then you make a good job of it. And that's how it ought to be.

And all at once, before you know it, you find you've swept the whole street clean, bit by bit. what's more, you aren't out of breath. That's important, too...” ― Michael Ende, Momo

[necovek]

As a counter point, I've also seen plenty people too focused on doing every little step up to some imagined standards that they never get to complete anything — basically, life intervenes and they got to leave with nothing really done at all.

I am personally goal motivated: I like achieving and building things (I enjoy the process in as much as I got the better of it :)). When things are complex, I come up with smaller goals that are on the path to getting the big thing done, all the while thinking how these things fit together.

This has made me great at coming up with iterative steps where each step brings value: even if I stop at any one point, I have done something useful.

In your example, I would probably dismantle the car enough to get the engine out and rebuilt and back in, and then go back to it sometime in the future to work on other stuff, all the while keeping a functioning car as I am rebuilding it.

[treflop]

Personally I feel like some things that have clear chunks of work are best goal-oriented like “reading through this book” while nebulous goals require a process-oriented method of thinking.

That said, I don’t think you should really worry about that distinction.

My method of getting things done is a 3 step:

1. Constant checking in on whether I am happy at my progress. If I am, keep doing what I’m doing.

2. If I’m not, try a completely different approach entirely. Abandon the old approach for a week or however long is reasonable.

3. If I fail to improve or I failed to actually put in place the different approach (saying and doing are different things), I need a shock to the system. Moving to a brand new city-kind-of-shock. Throwing away half your belongings-kind-of-shock.

The key is frequently checking if you are happy with progress and realizing that if you are not, you need a change. And you need to be willing to try changes constantly.

[EGreg]

Have any of you here considered that you simply need help? More people working alongside you? Being able to form a structure (such as a company or decentralized DAO) with responsibilities?

In my experience, when you are procrastinating, that's your subconscious telling you that you need help. Maybe you don't have the skills, or the time, to undertake the thing. Your developer brain says it'll take 1 hour and it takes 2 days.

https://qbix.com/blog/2016/11/17/properly-valuing-contributi...

[mcdow]

Marathon runner here. Spot on. A marathon is near impossible if you don’t like running. Inevitable if you like running.

Marathon training is actually the framework around which I do all “quests” now. If you enjoy the process, anything is possible. The key is finding a way to enjoy the process.

I’ve extended it to several areas I didn’t find very fun prior. Language learning and job hunting in particular.

I actually wrote my first blog post on this very subject[1]. Warning, it’s quite verbose and not the best. There’s a TL;DR.

[1] https://emmettmcdow.github.io/posts/how-to-learn-a-foreign-l...

[mlhpdx]

Yes. Personally, I enjoy the incremental problem solving perhaps too much — getting the last 10% of a project done before moving to the next is a challenge.

That said, and being aware of this trait, I started something that is a huge project (building a sail boat) for which I was completely unprepared (no experience, no tools). Each step was a challenge, but until the quest was finished meant nothing. Those last few steps were torture for me but getting it in the water and sailing it for the first time (and second, etc.) was amazing.

It’s the same thrill when my software gets used, and I now have renewed motivation to get some projects across the finish line and in people’s hands.

Two years well spent.

[taylodl]

Is this the thinking behind the statement it's the journey, not the destination? Enjoy the journey because as soon as you reach your destination, you're going to embark on another journey!

[UniverseHacker]

Great perspective. I’m building a small wooden sailboat, and find I get demoralized and either rush or stop when I think about having a finished boat. Better to just think about the very next task.

Ultimately building a boat is for someone that likes building boats, not someone that just wants to sail… restoring a car is for someone that likes working on cars, not someone that just wants a finished car to drive.

[bravetraveler]

There's a lot of truth to what you say. Some of my favorite people are process oriented!

I'm very, very goal oriented. I'll eagerly sacrifice process to get towards a goal. I find this works well with my work, SRE. Testing and redefining processes :D

This distinction really helps me realize how/why I get overwhelmed with projects of a certain size and go towards bisection

[spotplay]

Surprisingly I've learned to think like this (outside of work) thanks to Agile

[mettamage]

I also think it's about the whimsicality of it. Focusing on the process sounds so rational and cognitive. The issue is that it is devoid of feeling. A quest makes me feel something! Adventure! Let's go! There'll be dragons, there'll be riches and there'll be friendship! I need to seek out like minded individuals, I need to conquer my challenges, I need to go for the rewards that make me feel eternally rich!

That's what I feel when I think about a quest. Sure, you could say it's all good advice too, but that's just rational. Emotions move me, thoughts move me only a little. If I can get that advice (conquer challenges, seek peers/mentors, go for what I want) by thinking about it emotionally that's much more powerful than thinking about it rationally.

The rational understanding != the emotional understanding

[simonask]

Yeah, and also a quest seems like something that might be different every time, where a process is a formalized cookie-cutter pipeline, or at least that is what people associate with it in the context of software development.

When each thing you do is a unique journey, that's exciting. There may be obstacles to overcome, there may be learning opportunities, there may be empowerment in making your own decisions along the way.

Unfortunately this mindset does not satisfy the incessant (but futile) need for predictability that most managers have.

[Sharlin]

I just can't wait for companies to rebrand "sprints" to "quests" and "projects" to "campaigns". Story points naturally convert to experience points. Crunch time death march could then be "final boss fight".

[01HNNWZ0MV43FF]

"Campaigns" would be a nice convergence of "Games borrowing military terms" and "programmers borrowing military terms".

I'm on my way to prosecute a war against bugs, a march to the sea if you will. And the CI is my artillery!

[jameshart]

Fighting bosses is frowned upon

[smeej]

I think I slip into this mode automatically. As soon as I think of a "goal," I immediately ask myself what kinds of habits a person who accomplished that goal would likely have. Then I find the lowest possible resistance way to have that habit from this day forward.

Like, say I want to hike/climb some specific set of mountains. Great. What kinds of habits does a person who hikes all those mountains have? Well, they're probably someone who exercises every day. I can, as of today, become "someone who exercises every day, no matter what," if I set my requirement as "only one minute per day."

Habits grow on their own. I don't think it's really necessary to stage them. Once you see yourself as a certain kind of person, you just become that kind of person. And before you know it, since you're just like a person who hikes all those mountains, you end up being someone who has hiked all the mountains.

It's also the only effective way I've found to deal with my fear of success when it comes to big goals. I don't set them. I just decide to become the kind of person who would accomplish them, and by then, it doesn't feel like some impressive accomplishment. It just feels like a normal thing someone like me would do.

[screwt]

It's great that you slip into this mode automatically.

For me, the reframing of "goal" to "quest" helps enormously with this change of mode. A "goal" is something I hope/want to achieve in future - but today I'm busy with day-to-day chores etc. A "quest" however is something you are on. So if I'm on a quest to do X, of course I need to do something toward it every day.

[ctenb]

I think that another aspect of this verbal difference is that quests are meaningful because they inherently possess some level of difficulty and adventure. Taking on a quest means that you have a mindset with room for stumbling and getting back up and that you will eventually overcome. Focussing on a goal may sooner lead to frustration and giving up.

[veunes]

This approach can make the journey itself as valuable as the destination.

[fizlebit]

It is a fail/succeed mindset rather than a play mindset I imagine. I definitely feel a difference between a chore and a game. That said not all chores are easily turned into games. But seeking games over chores probably leads to a happier time.

[directevolve]

I think it's reverse causation. Motivating and meaningful activities feel like quests. Boring but necessary activities that we procrastinate on make us reach for "goal-setting" as a cure for the procrastination.

Wouldn't it be nice if we could somehow feel intrinsic motivation and meaning for the boring stuff too, so that even cleaning the toilet felt like part of a grand adventure?

[atoav]

But you need to think farther. Let's use writing a book as a stand in for other things, e.g. being able to code, playing an instrument, mastering embedded electronics programming, you name it:

The person who enjoys¹ writing a book and wants to finish them will likely become better at writing books than the person who just wrote a book to cross it off their bucket list.

There is also people who enjoy the process of writing so much, that the outcome literally doesn't matter anymore and they don't have any ambition to finish anything.

In reality most people who achieve great things have both a way/process/quest and many destinations/outcomes/goals along the way and the two things have to be somewhat in balance. Thst balance can differ for different people.

When people say you should focus on the way, not on the destination what they mean is: Don't be the person who just writes a book to cross it off the bucket list, while hating every second of the process and learning nothing from having done it.

¹: The word "enjoy" doesn't have to mean they feel good doing it, it just means there is an urge to do this versus something else

[slothtrop]

> I might enjoy having written a book

It's cheap and short-lived satisfaction. Any seasoned author is not going to feel good if they haven't been working at something new for awhile. We might project that it would make us feel good in terms of projecting an identity (for validation), but the rules are different when operating under imagination which necessarily suggests a divergence from the current reality, where you might not get much validation either from yourself or others (because you don't do anything)

[cjf101]

Another way I've encountered this is performance vs results. Performance is the things you do that you believe will lead to results. Results aren't always in your control (especially in competitive environments), but performance absolutely is. It's a lot easier to feel you are getting somewhere when you focus on things that you control.

[RevEng]

This is something I often have to instill in new software developers and occasionally to remind myself. We default to seeing the thing we want to build and the plan that we imagine for doing so. As we proceed, every bump and deviation from the plan feels like a set back. Every wrong turn and rewritten piece of code feels like a waste, a mistake. But in fact, it's all part of the process. Trying that avenue that turned out not to be what you wanted was a necessary part of learning what it is you did want. As The Pragmatic Programmer said, "Prepare to throw one away ... you'll have to anyway."

I make it clear that at any moment a plan isn't absolute because we can't possibly know what the future will hold. Instead, a plan is simply a direction to start heading. As we try and we learn, we update our understanding and we update our plan, heading in a different direction that hopefully brings us closer to our goals. If we think of a deviation from the plan as a failure to plan, we punish ourselves for a lack of omniscience - something we can hardly expect to live up to.

That same mindset helps a lot in understanding daily life too. When we see people make mistakes driving, or large construction projects going over budget, or social policies causing unanticipated problems, we are quick to blame people for not knowing better, but how can we expect them to know with certainty what will happen as the result of every decision they make? We simply do our best with the resources we have available and as events unfold we continue to do our best to steer ourselves to our desired outcomes. People shouldn't be punished for the outcome if they made a good choice given the resources they had. Hindsight is 20/20 and all that.

[jimbokun]

So the verbal sleight of hand is working as intended.

If you are not going to enjoy the process of writing a book, only the outcome of having written a book, chances are writing a book isn't a good use of your time.

[djeastm]

>I might enjoy having written a book, but I don’t think I would enjoy writing a book.

Reminds me of the saying "A classic novel is one that I'd like to have read, but don't want to read"

[corygiltner]

I am one who would love to have written a book (goal) and I don’t love writing (quest). I think writers love the act of writing and that’s how they get to the goal of writing a book.

[nxicvyvy]

I don't think so.

Theyre differentiating goals from quests, where goals are daily minutia, get a haircut, something you'd suggest you need to do this week, where as quests are bigger loftier goals, what would you do in the next two years? Learn to fly a plane.

The quests are still goals they just want to categorise it apart from meaningless low value goals.

Another part of it seems to be the approach, breaking it down into blocks and creating a plan to achieve it in your currently available time instead of putting it off.

[halfcat]

It’s not sleight of hand.

Goals (outcomes) are useful, but never fully within your control.

A quest (effort, basically) is within your control.

One should focus on the things they control (mindset, process, effort).

[hn_throwaway_99]

> And I don’t think calling it a quest instead of a goal would make much difference

Well, I of course haven't done it yet, but as one of those people who (stupidly, in a "the definition of insanity is doing things the same way and expecting a different outcome"-sort-of-way) makes New Year's Resolutions every year, and gets mildly depressed when I fail to reach them, there is something about this blog post that I loved and really clicked with me.

There are 3 reasons I like the framing of quest vs goals:

1. As you say, it focuses on the process instead of the outcome. I've of course known that this is how you're supposed to achieve goals (step-by-step I'd say), but something about the word "quest" makes it more real to me, and maybe even more desirable. I think perhaps that even though there are tons of painful things that happen during a "quest", they seem more connected with a "righteous outcome", vs. the laundry list of steps that I think of for most of the "goals" I want to attain.

2. I don't deal with unexpected curve balls well, and one reason I fail to reach a lot of my goals is I get dejected when things don't go according to plan. But I think the framing of "quest", where basically curve balls are 90% of what happens, makes it easier in my mind. It's like I'm actually planning and expecting the unexpected, instead of getting annoyed when the unexpected pops up. I really like it.

3. Finally, and though it may seem trivial or silly, the visualization of a "quest" for me is just something that seems, well, more adventurous than drudgery.

In any case, this is one of the first HN posts on self-improvement that I really liked and clicked with me (usually I roll my eyes at what feels like "survivorship bias" advice). I'll see how it goes.

[floxy]

>as one of those people who makes New Year's Resolutions every year, and gets mildly depressed when I fail to reach them...

This statement made me think of the book: One Small Step Can Change Your Life

https://www.amazon.com/Small-Step-Change-Your-Life/dp/076118...

...it is written by a psychiatrist about the practice of Kaizen, where you take absurdly small steps to reach your goals. So small that you can't fail. And these build on themselves. He covers your exact case. People who make New Year's resolutions that fail after a month or two. One example was a woman who needed to get exercise for health reasons. Previous exercise attempts have failed. So the doctor prescribes her to march in-place for 60 seconds every day, when she was normally watching TV. Anyway, it snowballs, as she realizes she can do more and more, and then starts to enjoy it. It is a short, inexpensive, easy read that I recommend.

[tshaddox]

“Quest” is an odd word choice for making this point. To me “quest” very strongly implies having a clear singular goal, whereas e.g. “journey” does not necessarily imply having any particular goal in mind.

[m3kw9]

While you are right, a different way to look at a same thing can produce breakthroughs, like exercise, you just exercise right? But if you gamify it, it can make it easier to endure and repeat

[meiraleal]

> But if you gamify it, it can make it easier to endure and repeat

Gamifying it doesn't do much if you don't accept playing the game and continuing when you lose.

[sorokod]

An excellent observation, in extreme cases the quest can completely superceed the goal. The movie "Memento" comes to mind.

[mkoubaa]

If you won't enjoy writing a book you won't write a book and you'll never taste the enjoyment of having written a book

[egypturnash]

Douglas Adams (author of The Hitch-Hiker's Guide To The Galaxy) was a best-selling author who was infamous for hating to write.

[BoredPositron]

That's the problem we have in most companies now: everyone loves the outcome, but not many love the work.

[01HNNWZ0MV43FF]

Well if it was fun, someone would do it for free, and then I wouldn't get paid. I only work to live.

[veunes]

Enjoying the process and enjoying the outcome... For me the terminology doesn’t change the experience

[roshankhan28]

i remember my teacher used to say, 'dont look up untill you are done'. back then i felt really annoyed by this, but now i get it.

[nutanc]

Talking in LLM parlance, you are put in a different context in the embedding space.

[wseqyrku]

It's because you ain't that guy. Ideas are in the air and theoretically they will eventually happen, the question is are you going to be that guy or you'd rather watch someone else make it happen.