I followed the link, and while there is a video of someone getting dragged off stage, I can't really verify the other claims.
But even so, dragging a presenter off stage is sus. And doesn't seem smart because even if the other claims are not true, I'm tempted to never attend Defcon if that's what they do.
This is Dmitry Grinberg[1] some of whose absolutely amazing projects (like, running Palm OS on other devices) have recently gotten some traction here on HN.
(In particular, he managed to get Palm OS running on the badges in question).
If there's one person whose credibility I wouldn't doubt on those matters, it's him.
Option A: let the dude have his talk. Nobody hears about it beyond the walls of defcon. Move along.
Option B: uninvite and call security. Guy becomes instant personality on reddit and hn. I didn't know that defcon had become a shitty, small minded operation that abuses volunteer time and can't take an Easter egg, well now I do!
I stopped paying attention a few years ago because their leadership was visibly heading in this direction.
It's always kind of frustrating to see programmers and other software people participating/defending that kind of thing considering logic is our whole game to begin with.
IANAL, but I'm skeptical that Dmitry's interpretation that Defcon has no license is correct. It sounds like Dmitry sent them firmware images with the mutual expectation that those will be used on badges, and they invited him to the Badge talk which could be considered consideration. That should constitute a contract, either verbal, or through concludent acts. This should give Defcon the right to use Dmitry's on the badges, but not modify it. So legally the whole thing would probably be considered a contract dispute, not use of unlicensed software.
Defcon will probably argue that including the easter egg was some kind breach of duty of Dmitry's part, and gave them the right to remove him from the talk, and modify the firmware to remove the easter egg. My expectation is that courts would decide that Defcon has the right to use the firmware, but will require them to pay some kind of compensation for not living up to their side of the bargain.
IMO the thing that may matter most here is the PR effect on Defcon. It's the badge - every attendee takes this thing home and engages with it. It's a talking point, memento and representation of the spirit of the conference.
That's an unmitigated PR disaster for Defcon. It doesn't matter to this who was right or wrong or what laws were broken, even if somehow all legally ended up in Defcon's favour, the damage to the brand is huge, enduring and set aside from those issues.
To address this, whoever at Defcon ultimately actioned this series of events should be held to account, for this PR aspect, and the matter immediately and publicly handed to someone with an appropriate understanding of Defcon's culture & reputation.
If including an Easter egg voids the contract, then they should also start a class action against Microsoft for frivolously including a flight simulator in excel.
It would be surprising to me that even if DEFCON could be considered to have a license, that that license would be irrevocable. At the end of the day they have received work product for free which they do not own and the owner is saying they can’t distribute it.
I feel like this is a good spot to mention that Dmitry's a friggin beast when it comes to engineering. As that Tweetster put it: "Dmitry is an insanely skilled dude. Easily on par with Carmack or Karpathy IMO. They almost had to delay the original Kindle Fire tablet because of a rare bug that all the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't fix in 6 months, but Dmitry nailed it in a few days"
Summary of the events unfolding by Sargonas on Reddit:
Maybe this will help with a listed summary of the known facts from first hands accounts. I am leaving gaps where there has just been speculation or second hand unverifiable information, and welcome anyone with first-hand knowledge of those aspects to comment below me to fill in the gaps. I'm merely presenting the facts as we have them from first-hand accounts (mostly from reddit and discord), without personal opinion or bias (hopefully, human nature is a tricky thing.)
Entropic Engineering designed and built the circuitry of the badges, physically. They were either only partially, or not at all, paid by DEFCON for this work, contrary to whatever formal agreement they had in place. (Other amazingly talented individuals create the silk screen design, the shells, and the game, but are totally removed from this drama so I'm leaving them out of it.) Subsequently, all references to them have been removed in various materials, and even one of their logos was removed from the silk screen. (apparently small one may be left under the battery? but I can't check because I affixed mine to the board to stop it's shifting.)
dmitrygr wrote the firmware for the badges as well
Somewhere along the way, Entropic was cut out of the process and left to the side by DEFCON in a way that left Entropic feeling burned and under/un paid for their non-trivial work (according to some comments below it is 6 figure sum, but this is second hand info).
Dmitry felt this was unfair, and put an easter egg into the badge code. This easter egg simply comments that Entropic engineered the badges, and had their credits removed everywhere, with an address for donations if you wish to support them. This was entirely Dmitrys doing as a gesture of thanks to the Entropic team.
This easter egg more or less flew under the radar until EoD friday.
Friday evening, after spending most of his day traveling to DEFCON and writing a 1.5 update in his spare time on his flight to fix some issues, Dmitry was up on stage with the other badge creators about to present the usual badge talk, when word of the Easter egg went around (likely due to him including some slides on his portion of the presentation about it.)
DEFCON staff had Goons escort Dmitry off stage shortly before the talk started, delaying the talk some.
during the talk, a comment was made about “unauthorized code“ being on the badges.
Dmitry setup himself on the sidewalk outside the hall, and basically held his own mini talk about the work he did and Entropics contributions.
At some point, LVMPD showed up. It is unclear to me personally who issued the call but second hand info says it was DEFCON staff. They noted Dmitry was simply talking to people (albiet nearly 100 of them) on a public sidewalk, outside a building owned by the county, and nothing was really amiss, and left shortly after.
Dmitry, in his (likely valid) opinion feels this whole situation has not been handled well, and since his code was written free of charge, without any signed agreements with DEFCON or consequently any rights assignments, has announced that he intends to assert his legal ownership of the code (which is his right under us copyright law). As a result, he will gladly issue a non-transferable right to the code to any attendee who asks him for one, but is no longer going to "turn a blind eye" to the fact DEFCON does not have a legal license to his code, and instead look into taking actions that are within his power to take to clarify their lack of ownership of the code on the badges. (I believe in discord he may have gone so far as to say DMCA, but I need to double-check.)
bearing this in mind this does add a curious wrinkle to the statement about “unauthorized code” from DEFCON given… The obvious.
Can confirm. Dmitry saved the Fire tablet by finding an error in TI’s BSP while J.S. documented the repro steps, and gave me the info to get it fixed. This was during manufacture, 3 days before public release iirc.
He also rescued the Bowser pinmux that I had screwed up. And stepped in when the display IP didn’t work. And a ton of other heroic engineering.
The early Fire Phone engineering team was really talented and Dmitry was the best.
Am I missing something about how this story went missing from the front page? There is at least one story with less points posted 12 hours earlier that is still visisble there.
Frankly… i’m not surprised. The whole industry is filled with this kind of fascistoid attitude now. Every organization takes any chance they can to silence opinions they don’t like (and this happens both left and right).
I see from the link above that the POLICE was called on dmitrygr for… speaking to people in a public space?
Really?
Defcon has gone from outcast meeting to full mainstream and interest-preserving. Kinda lost all of its hacker attitude, and this is proof.
I was not in the crowd so I can't say anything more about that. That said,
> This dude, as a contractor-for-hire, injected unwanted code he calls "just an easter egg" in the final firmware of the badge. This "unwanted code" is a screen asking for bitcoin donations and self-aggrandizing himself.
If this is how you feel about an easter egg I suspect you misunderstand the point of DEF CON. Maybe the organizers of the conference do too.
Besides what other commenters wrote, I think it'd odd to gloss over Defcon stiffing their Badge HW vendor while attacking Dmitry, Defcon's other business partner, for not having "a responsible business dispute".
Are you sure Dmitry was a paid contractor? Let's see if Defcon disputes that Dmitry was basically asked to informally work on a friends and family basis.
Where are you getting this information that Dmitry was a paid contractor?
[+] [-] gavinhoward|1 year ago|reply
But even so, dragging a presenter off stage is sus. And doesn't seem smart because even if the other claims are not true, I'm tempted to never attend Defcon if that's what they do.
[+] [-] dmitrygr|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] romwell|1 year ago|reply
(In particular, he managed to get Palm OS running on the badges in question).
If there's one person whose credibility I wouldn't doubt on those matters, it's him.
[1] https://dmitry.gr
[+] [-] dang|1 year ago|reply
DEF CON's response to the badge controversy - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41211519 - Aug 2024 (41 comments)
[+] [-] yyyfb|1 year ago|reply
Option A: let the dude have his talk. Nobody hears about it beyond the walls of defcon. Move along.
Option B: uninvite and call security. Guy becomes instant personality on reddit and hn. I didn't know that defcon had become a shitty, small minded operation that abuses volunteer time and can't take an Easter egg, well now I do!
Well played...
[+] [-] katzinsky|1 year ago|reply
It's always kind of frustrating to see programmers and other software people participating/defending that kind of thing considering logic is our whole game to begin with.
[+] [-] threatofrain|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] CodesInChaos|1 year ago|reply
Defcon will probably argue that including the easter egg was some kind breach of duty of Dmitry's part, and gave them the right to remove him from the talk, and modify the firmware to remove the easter egg. My expectation is that courts would decide that Defcon has the right to use the firmware, but will require them to pay some kind of compensation for not living up to their side of the bargain.
[+] [-] robxorb|1 year ago|reply
That's an unmitigated PR disaster for Defcon. It doesn't matter to this who was right or wrong or what laws were broken, even if somehow all legally ended up in Defcon's favour, the damage to the brand is huge, enduring and set aside from those issues.
To address this, whoever at Defcon ultimately actioned this series of events should be held to account, for this PR aspect, and the matter immediately and publicly handed to someone with an appropriate understanding of Defcon's culture & reputation.
[+] [-] kaliqt|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] madaxe_again|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] AbrahamParangi|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|1 year ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] rwl4|1 year ago|reply
https://x.com/dmitrygr/status/1822124650547257637
It's definitely somewhat aggressive. Way to burn bridges.
[+] [-] unknown|1 year ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] jmprspret|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] mvdtnz|1 year ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] UberFly|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] Animats|1 year ago|reply
[1] https://www.dexerto.com/tech/hacking-convention-uses-fully-w...
[+] [-] dmitrygr|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] numpad0|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] sneak|1 year ago|reply
I even live in Vegas now and I don’t go anymore.
[+] [-] beaugunderson|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] Aeolun|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] raldi|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] mvdtnz|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] h0l0cube|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] orf|1 year ago|reply
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41207740
[+] [-] pdoege|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] gus_massa|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] Firmwarrior|1 year ago|reply
Summary of the events unfolding by Sargonas on Reddit:
Maybe this will help with a listed summary of the known facts from first hands accounts. I am leaving gaps where there has just been speculation or second hand unverifiable information, and welcome anyone with first-hand knowledge of those aspects to comment below me to fill in the gaps. I'm merely presenting the facts as we have them from first-hand accounts (mostly from reddit and discord), without personal opinion or bias (hopefully, human nature is a tricky thing.)
Entropic Engineering designed and built the circuitry of the badges, physically. They were either only partially, or not at all, paid by DEFCON for this work, contrary to whatever formal agreement they had in place. (Other amazingly talented individuals create the silk screen design, the shells, and the game, but are totally removed from this drama so I'm leaving them out of it.) Subsequently, all references to them have been removed in various materials, and even one of their logos was removed from the silk screen. (apparently small one may be left under the battery? but I can't check because I affixed mine to the board to stop it's shifting.)
dmitrygr wrote the firmware for the badges as well
Somewhere along the way, Entropic was cut out of the process and left to the side by DEFCON in a way that left Entropic feeling burned and under/un paid for their non-trivial work (according to some comments below it is 6 figure sum, but this is second hand info).
Dmitry felt this was unfair, and put an easter egg into the badge code. This easter egg simply comments that Entropic engineered the badges, and had their credits removed everywhere, with an address for donations if you wish to support them. This was entirely Dmitrys doing as a gesture of thanks to the Entropic team.
This easter egg more or less flew under the radar until EoD friday.
Friday evening, after spending most of his day traveling to DEFCON and writing a 1.5 update in his spare time on his flight to fix some issues, Dmitry was up on stage with the other badge creators about to present the usual badge talk, when word of the Easter egg went around (likely due to him including some slides on his portion of the presentation about it.)
DEFCON staff had Goons escort Dmitry off stage shortly before the talk started, delaying the talk some.
during the talk, a comment was made about “unauthorized code“ being on the badges.
Dmitry setup himself on the sidewalk outside the hall, and basically held his own mini talk about the work he did and Entropics contributions.
At some point, LVMPD showed up. It is unclear to me personally who issued the call but second hand info says it was DEFCON staff. They noted Dmitry was simply talking to people (albiet nearly 100 of them) on a public sidewalk, outside a building owned by the county, and nothing was really amiss, and left shortly after.
Dmitry, in his (likely valid) opinion feels this whole situation has not been handled well, and since his code was written free of charge, without any signed agreements with DEFCON or consequently any rights assignments, has announced that he intends to assert his legal ownership of the code (which is his right under us copyright law). As a result, he will gladly issue a non-transferable right to the code to any attendee who asks him for one, but is no longer going to "turn a blind eye" to the fact DEFCON does not have a legal license to his code, and instead look into taking actions that are within his power to take to clarify their lack of ownership of the code on the badges. (I believe in discord he may have gone so far as to say DMCA, but I need to double-check.)
bearing this in mind this does add a curious wrinkle to the statement about “unauthorized code” from DEFCON given… The obvious.
[+] [-] pdoege|1 year ago|reply
He also rescued the Bowser pinmux that I had screwed up. And stepped in when the display IP didn’t work. And a ton of other heroic engineering.
The early Fire Phone engineering team was really talented and Dmitry was the best.
[+] [-] lawgimenez|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|1 year ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] gexcolo|1 year ago|reply
https://archive.is/dtRg2 https://archive.is/8HK5y https://archive.is/yk5uU
Is there any transparency that could tell us why this change was made?
[+] [-] znpy|1 year ago|reply
Frankly… i’m not surprised. The whole industry is filled with this kind of fascistoid attitude now. Every organization takes any chance they can to silence opinions they don’t like (and this happens both left and right).
I see from the link above that the POLICE was called on dmitrygr for… speaking to people in a public space?
Really?
Defcon has gone from outcast meeting to full mainstream and interest-preserving. Kinda lost all of its hacker attitude, and this is proof.
[+] [-] unknown|1 year ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] nubinetwork|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] the_biot|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|1 year ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] unknown|1 year ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] TrueDuality|1 year ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] saagarjha|1 year ago|reply
> This dude, as a contractor-for-hire, injected unwanted code he calls "just an easter egg" in the final firmware of the badge. This "unwanted code" is a screen asking for bitcoin donations and self-aggrandizing himself.
If this is how you feel about an easter egg I suspect you misunderstand the point of DEF CON. Maybe the organizers of the conference do too.
[+] [-] hitekker|1 year ago|reply
Besides what other commenters wrote, I think it'd odd to gloss over Defcon stiffing their Badge HW vendor while attacking Dmitry, Defcon's other business partner, for not having "a responsible business dispute".
[+] [-] threatofrain|1 year ago|reply
Where are you getting this information that Dmitry was a paid contractor?
[+] [-] krisoft|1 year ago|reply
Could you please tell us your source on that? Specifically that he was paid for developing the software.
[+] [-] dmitrygr|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] notinmykernel|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] notfed|1 year ago|reply
Were the presenters he yelled at people who he was protesting against?
[+] [-] unknown|1 year ago|reply
[deleted]