[bkraz]

As a longtime YouTube creator who uses Patreon for financial support, the news is terrible: Patreon informed me that all creators must switch to a monthly subscription schedule instead of the per-creation schedule that I and many other currently use. The whole point of per-creation is that it allows me to take time off, and only charge people when I release something, thus incentivizing me, and being fair to my supporters. I'm really annoyed by this change, and will start pushing back, but if it happens as planned, I may be forced to switch to another platform, or come up with some other solution.

[AlexandrB]

Apple has quietly been one of the biggest culprits in the proliferation of subscription software. They still don't support upgrades/upgrade pricing. Subscriptions are also the easiest way to implement a software demo or trial in the App Store. Finally they use their control of the App Store to coerce anyone doing something different than monthly/yearly subscriptions into that model (as we see here).

It sucks big time.

[baby]

I really hate how the current pattern is

1. Download seemingly cool app on iOS (free with potential payments)

2. Go through a 30min quizz

3. Required to subscribe for $150/year to start using the app

It’s not free, it’s false advertising

[daniel_reetz]

Don't forget censorship/banning of nude images. The tumblr fiasco (among others) was their doing.

[api]

They've certainly encouraged subscriptions but the big driver is the drive for recurring revenue, which can be valued up to 20X what one-time revenue is valued. In some cases companies with investors are instructed to not even care about non-recurring revenue since it doesn't matter. Revenue is recurring or it doesn't exist.

Recurring revenue has always been highly valued. What changed is that the Internet and modern automated payment networks have made it so much easier to implement recurring revenue models. Now everything can be a subscription and now companies that don't have subscriptions are at a massive valuation and fund raising disadvantage. The more companies figure out how to add recurring revenue, the more companies have to figure out how to add recurring revenue.

This is why your car company, appliance company, etc. is trying to get you to subscribe to something.

[derefr]

> They still don't support upgrades/upgrade pricing.

What would this mean, exactly?

You can sell people a demo→full-version permanent unlock as a one-time purchase, same as you can sell DLC in a game.

And you can also have subscription tiers, where you get more features out of the higher tiers of subscriptions.

And you can, in theory, freely mix these — e.g. charging someone a subscription for the base version, and then charging them a one-time fee to unlock a specific feature.

If you want, you could even charge for app features as consumables (just like F2P games do) — where you pay to have a block of credits that you use up, or you pay for one month and then have to buy it again when it runs out.

What's the missing revenue model here?

[jonny_eh]

Apple also takes a smaller share via subscriptions after a year (30% -> 15%).

[AmVess]

It has basically made their app store completely unusable. I am not going to manage a bunch of subs for what amounts to zero effort crapware.

[david_allison]

Not being able to set custom price points for subscriptions is also painful

[egypturnash]

Oh you too. Glad to know I'm not the only one who's really liked per-creation for years. "I pay my rent if I can do eight posts of comics pages/art/etc a month" was a good kick in the ass to keep working.

Patreon's been trying to kick everyone off of per-creation for like half the time I've been using it, so I'm sure they're pretty delighted to have this excuse to nuke that mode. I don't think I've seen a single Patreon-like that has it and I don't want it badly enough to try and cobble up something out of a few Wordpress plugins.

[throwaway290]

OG Patreon is monthly. The whole point is to support creator in tough times, not buy her stuff on discount.

[giancarlostoro]

The only way to put an end to this is if more people stop installing apps that are just website skins, and just use the open web instead.

[kjkjadksj]

Apps are now forcing you to use their website skin even though its damn easy to offer a mobile web alternative that doesn't squander ever precious local storage.

[imzadi]

I don't think this is up to the consumer. The companies should just pull their apps from the Apple marketplace. If something can be a website, just be a website. Why even mess with an app at all? It's not like consumers are clamoring for these apps. Everyone I know hates that you have to have an app for everything these days.

[xelamonster]

Yeah, though the problem with this is that from my experience with Android, the web version of Patreon is practically unusable. Not that the app is much better, they seem determined to come up with the most horrific UX anyone could imagine across all platforms, but it at least can somewhat consistently handle playing the podcasts I subscribe to without cutting out every five minutes.

[cesarb]

I've seen some creators on Patreon "pause" their monthly subscription when they have nothing to release on a given month, so that patrons won't be billed for that month. That could be a workaround for your use case.

[danShumway]

Do we know whether or not iOS's subscription model supports pausing?

I guess I assume Patreon would mention if it didn't.

[jkaplowitz]

It’s bad, yes. It would be good if Patreon allowed sticking with the billing systems which Apple is forbidding, but I do understand that they may no longer be able to justify the business expense of maintaining them given the anticipated changes in usage patterns.

Practical suggestion:

Maybe you can project a certain number of releases per year, reduce that projection slightly to give yourself a margin of flexibility, announce that target to your supporters, be explicit wit them that the rate of output throughout the year will be uneven, and then charge a monthly subscription price of 1/12 of the total price for your annual target output?

Assuning a good projection would smoothly have approximately the same financial outcome for everyone as the status quo in most cases. I can think of ways in which this could be gamed, but most of those who would want to bother gaming it are probably cash-poor enough that you may not mind, or if too many people do this to preserve your financial objectives I can also think of workarounds for most of the potential abuses.

[bkraz]

Yes, it's a reasonable workaround. I believe Patreon also allows creators to "pause" their account, suspending payments for an indefinite amount of time. So, I could just keep the account paused, then unpause for a month when I make a video. Although, I believe that Patreon doesn't want the per-creation model themselves, since charging the same amount each month is simpler, and easier to project revenue, etc, so they are probably just bundling this unpopular change with the Apple announcement.

[dannyobrien]

I don't understand why Patreon has to drop the per-creation model. Can they not just not offer that on iOS, and continue it on other platforms? (Perhaps with a "convert from susbcription to per-creation" feature online?)

[kmeisthax]

From the article:

> Apple has also made clear that if creators on Patreon continue to use unsupported billing models or disable transactions in the iOS app, we will be at risk of having the entire app removed from their App Store.

In other words, every Patreon creator has to be billable through iOS App Store or you get kicked off.

Someone should get the FTC or EU involved. This is beyond the pale.

[Uvix]

User confusion - if they block users from subscribing to those creators on iOS they will inevitably have support tickets to deal with it. Hence their 16-month project to remove non-iOS-compatible plans.

[squigz]

The per-creation model isn't even offered to new Patreon accounts, or those that have switched away from it. I'm not sure why

[rk06]

Most likely because this feature existed on iOS before

[kragen]

hey, i answered your email about aleph last wednesday; no stress if you're answering slowly, i just wanted to check to see if it had fallen into your spam filter

unfortunately i don't think i have any other way to contact you other than email and hn comments

[stavros]

I think the platform you should switch to here is Android. This is Apple's fault, Patreon doesn't seem like it likes the changes any more than you do.

[spullara]

do you think that they can switch their customers platform? this comment doesn't make any sense at all.

[heavyset_go]

Google forces apps on the Play Store to use Google's payment methods and give them a 15% to 30% cut of revenue, as well.

You can sideload, but the duopoly exists and they're shaking 99.9% of users down for every dime they can get out of them.

[maxglute]

Applied Science in the wild! Your videos look expensive, does per video patreons tend to cover them?

[kevin_thibedeau]

Write to your Representative and Senator Wyden before you switch.

[tetrisgm]

Any chance we could chat about how per creation works? I'm working on a competitor. @shokuonproduct / "shokunin." On discord

[ThrowawayTestr]

If you're able, my artist friend has had a lot of success running their own site and doing their own payments through PayPal.

[bluescrn]

Everyone's heard horror stories about Paypal, though. Doesn't seem like a platform that you want to become too reliant on.

[yjftsjthsd-h]

1. Building and running your own site is a lot more work than using Patreon.

2. Now you're at PayPal's tender mercies, which... well, you do you, but I wouldn't advise it.

[ryan29]

How do they deal with the taxes?

[ncr100]

Am I misunderstanding, that PayPal can workaround Apple's payment rules which Patreon is complying with?

[RockRobotRock]

You are my favorite youtuber by a mile! I appreciate that you always prioritize quality over quantity in your videos.

[trainyperson]

Does Patreon let you see what percentage of your subscribers signed up through the iOS app?

[renewiltord]

How can another platform be better about this? Wouldn’t they be subject to the same thing? Or is there some component here that is not tied to the Apple demand?

[bkraz]

That's a great question! How far does Apple's control extend into markets that are unrelated to their core business? I always prefer using mobile websites on my own android phone instead of downloading apps because of security concerns and general notification spamming, ads, and annoyances, and it seems to me this would be a great solution ie just replacing "apps" with bookmarks. For the current situation, I may look into services like Nebula, doing PayPal directly, YouTube subscriptions and donations, or setting up an online store. Or even.... sponsored videos!! (just kidding)

[inetknght]

> As a longtime YouTube creator who uses Patreon for financial support

How long until YouTube (Google) demand "their" cut of your Patreon income? What will you do then?

[johnnyanmac]

I know what you are trying to do, but this is he host of an 800k channel. They already generate millions for youtube. Google will at best try to steer that channel to use Youtube's recent-ish dontation and memberships features.

No reason to disrupt money directly from someone they are paying; if they want to do it sneakily they simply change their payout rates and argue over that instead.

[dvngnt_]

pateron can upload an apk and bypass google's play store