This is not a critique of the (nice) study, but what seems to me the overall context that should be kept in mind, especially once we are talking about "optimizing".
Optimizing "study, retention phase, test" for greatest knowledge retention at a delayed test time, is very different from optimizing for greatest value of knowledge learned.
To optimize learning value, learn things that are immediately useful, you can immediately incorporate into learning something else, and ideally both.
The sooner and more you use something, the greater its value AND the greater your retention will be.
If you have to learn something valuable but with no short term use (how to handle a rare brain surgery complication), find a way to use it. Create an ongoing useful project that will revisit that knowledge during the "retention interval" (e.g. a concise summary of rare situations you need to handle, for you and others, that you can revisit and improve with additional and updated knowledge).
So optimize "topic choice", "topic progression", and "study, (optionally) test, use, use, use", for total value of learning.
"Use" is motivation, test, study review, and value realization put together.
I think a lot of topics are much less sequential the further you go. As an adult I spend most of my time repeating the fundamentals of my field, and learning a topic deeply as needed. For children it probably makes sense to cram the multiplication tables.
It encourages finding content from native sources, learning new words in context from materials that interest you rather than textbook content, and helps you build your own personal corpus of sentences as you encounter them in the wild. Will soon expand to more media types than just web and epub, to include YouTube/comics/HDMI input/game emulators etc
If you find flashcards from others, you also get easy tools for discovering more sentences from source materials that might interest you or from your own corpus. More coming for this and other word/kanji-level tracking analytics. Offline-first and privacy friendly.
[Mods: it might be helpful to tag this paper as written in 2007]
It seems to me this paper is bringing to light the idea of spaced repetition for learning and this has become quite popular in the productivity/learning culture of today (e.g. Ali Abdaal).
> Alternatively, mathematics textbooks could easily adopt a format that engenders spacing.
I tutor middle school students in mathematics and this is definitely being implemented in their textbooks! At the end of each chapter, there a is normal chapter review practice test followed by a "Cumulative Practice" which reviews topics from the previous chapters in the book. These are especially beneficial to my students as, like the paper highlights, it promotes long-term memory of those topics.
> For example, although computer-based instruction typically provides extensive retrieval practice and rapid feedback, it offers a currently unexploited opportunity to schedule study sessions in ways that optimize long-term retention.
There is an immensely popular software called Anki which implements exactly this "spaced repetition"-type protocol.
There is a comparable software that has a friendlier UX: https://mochi.cards/. It's basically Anki, if Anki were smoother. Does cost a tiny bit though.
Anki is very much... an expert's tool? I think there's quite a lot of opportunity (not necessarily monetarily :)) for SRS software with a good UX.
Anki's data model is rather strange, which partly relates to its flexibility but has some unexpected downsides and trap-doors.
I would love a slightly more opinionated SRS tool! (Maybe with a bit more UI polish, rather than rewriting the backend in Rust)
I push the new guys to fix project documentation once they’ve figured out a tricky bit. It helps solidify their knowledge, and helps us double check that they understood, and it’s something they can contribute when they still haven’t become part of the bus number on anything yet.
That all sounds reasonable and smart, but the real reason I do it is the Curse of Knowledge. People in a system can’t see it from the outside. They make assumptions, use opaque or even misleading jargon, and employ circular logic. The new guy doesn’t know the lingo, or the circular logic. Their explanation will make more sense to the next hire than anything I can say. And having it written down this way can also give me new perspective on the system. Maybe it doesn’t have to work this way.
Sounds great but I was expecting more evidence. They talk about this shuffling method, which interleaves material as a way to provide spacing and reintroduce material. But it appears to just be their opinion that it will help improve retention. Also what is the deal with this "hypothetical interaction between ISI and RI"? Why not do enough experiments to actually plot it out? Anyone can graph out a hypothetical interaction.
Years ago there was a great extended comment here on HN about teaching a linear algebra course using, among other tactics, a similar spacing of the homework problems. He reported excellent results. I wish I remembered the username. Ben something?
I'd highly encourage anyone interested in the contents of this article/learning about learning to read through the submitter's blog: https://www.justinmath.com/blog/
I also recommend https://www.learningscientists.org/posters from scientists in the field, which covers additional scientifically-effective approaches that a course designer or more long term approach might take. For example, not only applying Spaced Repetition, Interleaving and Active Recall (all possible through automated spaced repetition apps based on simply input), but elements like Dual coding (related to "Varied practise") - mixing visual and other elements when learning (which requires effort to create them), and elaboration practise (like free recall). To the end of applying these - and other critical elements like focusing on the motivation of the learner and enabling them to understand what they are missing with progress & identified "blindspot" misconceptions (on their own incredibly powerful), I've been developing Revision.ai since before GPT-3, through a Psychology MSc.
Content is good but he is part of a paid math program and some articles and submissions appear to be indirect advertising/marketing if you think about it. (but it's effective and less forceful)
https://www.justinmath.com/why-is-the-edtech-industry-so-dam...
> Because people forget much of what they learn, students could benefit from learning strategies that provide long-lasting knowledge. Yet surprisingly little is known about how long-term retention is most efficiently achieved.
I've always thought that the real problem is information relevancy. People need practical uses for remembering something beyond synthetic bullshit exams. Efficient techniques are great, but nothing demotivates more than not having a reason to learn beyond being told that you have to.
Nobody has to reach for flashcards, extensive notes, or advanced techniques when trying to learn something they're actually interested in, it's retained almost immediately and effortlessly. There has to be some kind of subconscious gauge of information relevancy that physically controls the level of absorption, a sort of "learning rate" if you will.
I agree motivation to learn and maintaining interest is key, to effect the learning rate you mention. The enjoyment itself, although a crucifying word to use in discussions when teaching students considered the "best of the best", still matters and predominates over the effectiveness factor for most of the semester for students, at least. Because of just being "told to learn" it.
Basically 70% of the semester most students are not studying 40 hours - they are doing 30 hours of real work, and perhaps only 15 hours effectively. And for good reason: Nothing is bridging or rewarding them in a way that interests/motivates them, for courses where the interest isn't natural.
A bridge to motivate them would be ideal. In 2021 I started using GPT-3 to generate motivational "reasons to learn a concept" cards for my flashcard app, - Revision.ai - which you can read about here in the 3rd item: https://www.revision.ai/articles/20ThingsRevisionAIDoesForBe... - the reason we disabled them was simple: we could never quite time the cards right to help the student when they needed it. When the app is closed, they aren't motivated - they don't see them. Mid study session? Showing such cards (or AI generated examples) interrupted the flow [https://www.instagram.com/p/CVVlIuVg31W/]
We have also tried recommending relevant short/mid length youtube videos for visual/"breaks" from overwhelming learning. That did not boost student success either. I guess it doesn't address that you are still being told to do it, not naturally flowing into learning.
I welcome any technical or conceptual ideas you have to improve this and help increase interest amongst students. We have found that turning lecture slideshows into sets of exercises with clear visuals[https://www.instagram.com/p/C5ByftwiJ00/], breaking content up, and showing progress does motivate students to study more(and in a semi-related dissertation I wrote, possibly reduce Test Anxiety and tension). Please let me know of any ideas you have!
I disagree. Motivation will keep you reading the material, but that alone will not make you remember it that much better.
When you're motivated about something you can practice, you may remember more by doing it (which also acts a spaced repetition). But good luck trying that with, say, astrophysics or macroeconomics.
When motivated, you're also more likely to pick up other books on the subject, which is another form of spaced repetition.
I'd guess, that overlearning is so widespread not because it is beneficial for an individual, but as a way for a teacher to deal with a lot of students at once. To measure just the right amount of learning the teacher needs to work with each student individually, and give exercises for them based on a quality of their newly formed knowledge. But the system is mostly tuned for mass-education to amplify the impact of a teacher's work.
I’ll mention that I’ve gone full-time on an iOS/macOS tool for learning Japanese through reading called Manabi Reader: https://reader.manabi.io
It combines reading and flashcards, such that it tracks every word and kanji you read and learn in order to show you analytics on what you need to learn to be able to read something or achieve JLPT goals, and highlights unknown/learning words in texts. Next up for the flashcard part is to replace the SM2 algorithm with FSRS for the flashcards, as well as having flashcards get passively reviewed simply by reading content.
I also suspect people are missing out on speed of learning when reviewing flashcards one at a time for hours. Besides actively recalling reviewing flashcards passively while reading, I’ll experiment with other review techniques like seeing a page at a time of vocab / revealable answers. Our minds absorb at the periphery of our vision and scanning/inputting a bunch of information at once, too. I’m unconvinced flashcard UI is the final expression of forgetting curve research based learning apps
Also working on Reader features such as manga/pdf/youtube/game emulators, plus expanding to all languages.
A lot of what's on that page is just nonsense. The page has a very clear bias toward one method and writes all sorts of unscientific drivel as a result.
One thing I’ve found when I spend most of a day trying to learn things, is that having a ~1.5 hour nap is pretty important. Not sure what goes on, but it feels like it turns the disconnected “fog” of information in my head into something that is a least loosely linked and can be vaguely recalled upon rather than completely forgotten.
Unfortunately I kinda need to plan these sorts of days ahead, because trying to nap past 2PM is a good way to fuck my nighttime sleep.
I'm pretty sure the current thought is that you ONLY "learn" during sleep, if you consider learning to be filtering, organizing, and throwing out vs keeping.
The time between study and testing (retention interval) is the most salient factor for students. Repeating material at intervals attenuates the forgetting curve somewhat, but not enough to generate passing scores. Cumulative exams only force students to study all material in a massed study session prior to a final exam.
I say this as someone who works on education and as a lifelong learner who has tried many ways of improving retention.
[+] [-] Nevermark|1 year ago|reply
Optimizing "study, retention phase, test" for greatest knowledge retention at a delayed test time, is very different from optimizing for greatest value of knowledge learned.
To optimize learning value, learn things that are immediately useful, you can immediately incorporate into learning something else, and ideally both.
The sooner and more you use something, the greater its value AND the greater your retention will be.
If you have to learn something valuable but with no short term use (how to handle a rare brain surgery complication), find a way to use it. Create an ongoing useful project that will revisit that knowledge during the "retention interval" (e.g. a concise summary of rare situations you need to handle, for you and others, that you can revisit and improve with additional and updated knowledge).
So optimize "topic choice", "topic progression", and "study, (optionally) test, use, use, use", for total value of learning.
"Use" is motivation, test, study review, and value realization put together.
[+] [-] zeroCalories|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] wahnfrieden|1 year ago|reply
It encourages finding content from native sources, learning new words in context from materials that interest you rather than textbook content, and helps you build your own personal corpus of sentences as you encounter them in the wild. Will soon expand to more media types than just web and epub, to include YouTube/comics/HDMI input/game emulators etc
If you find flashcards from others, you also get easy tools for discovering more sentences from source materials that might interest you or from your own corpus. More coming for this and other word/kanji-level tracking analytics. Offline-first and privacy friendly.
[+] [-] michaelt|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] cbracketdash|1 year ago|reply
It seems to me this paper is bringing to light the idea of spaced repetition for learning and this has become quite popular in the productivity/learning culture of today (e.g. Ali Abdaal).
> Alternatively, mathematics textbooks could easily adopt a format that engenders spacing.
I tutor middle school students in mathematics and this is definitely being implemented in their textbooks! At the end of each chapter, there a is normal chapter review practice test followed by a "Cumulative Practice" which reviews topics from the previous chapters in the book. These are especially beneficial to my students as, like the paper highlights, it promotes long-term memory of those topics.
> For example, although computer-based instruction typically provides extensive retrieval practice and rapid feedback, it offers a currently unexploited opportunity to schedule study sessions in ways that optimize long-term retention.
There is an immensely popular software called Anki which implements exactly this "spaced repetition"-type protocol.
[+] [-] nicomeemes|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] __float|1 year ago|reply
Anki's data model is rather strange, which partly relates to its flexibility but has some unexpected downsides and trap-doors. I would love a slightly more opinionated SRS tool! (Maybe with a bit more UI polish, rather than rewriting the backend in Rust)
[+] [-] shahzaibmushtaq|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] hinkley|1 year ago|reply
That all sounds reasonable and smart, but the real reason I do it is the Curse of Knowledge. People in a system can’t see it from the outside. They make assumptions, use opaque or even misleading jargon, and employ circular logic. The new guy doesn’t know the lingo, or the circular logic. Their explanation will make more sense to the next hire than anything I can say. And having it written down this way can also give me new perspective on the system. Maybe it doesn’t have to work this way.
[+] [-] cyberax|1 year ago|reply
A joke in Russian universities:
- A teaching assistant tells a student: "Look, I've been explaining it to you for so long, that I myself understood it!"
[+] [-] kqr|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] huhtenberg|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] wahnfrieden|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|1 year ago|reply
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[+] [-] chrisweekly|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] hnthrow12390|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] Almondsetat|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] boredemployee|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] highcountess|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] moffkalast|1 year ago|reply
I've always thought that the real problem is information relevancy. People need practical uses for remembering something beyond synthetic bullshit exams. Efficient techniques are great, but nothing demotivates more than not having a reason to learn beyond being told that you have to.
Nobody has to reach for flashcards, extensive notes, or advanced techniques when trying to learn something they're actually interested in, it's retained almost immediately and effortlessly. There has to be some kind of subconscious gauge of information relevancy that physically controls the level of absorption, a sort of "learning rate" if you will.
[+] [-] james-revisoai|1 year ago|reply
Basically 70% of the semester most students are not studying 40 hours - they are doing 30 hours of real work, and perhaps only 15 hours effectively. And for good reason: Nothing is bridging or rewarding them in a way that interests/motivates them, for courses where the interest isn't natural.
A bridge to motivate them would be ideal. In 2021 I started using GPT-3 to generate motivational "reasons to learn a concept" cards for my flashcard app, - Revision.ai - which you can read about here in the 3rd item: https://www.revision.ai/articles/20ThingsRevisionAIDoesForBe... - the reason we disabled them was simple: we could never quite time the cards right to help the student when they needed it. When the app is closed, they aren't motivated - they don't see them. Mid study session? Showing such cards (or AI generated examples) interrupted the flow [https://www.instagram.com/p/CVVlIuVg31W/] We have also tried recommending relevant short/mid length youtube videos for visual/"breaks" from overwhelming learning. That did not boost student success either. I guess it doesn't address that you are still being told to do it, not naturally flowing into learning.
I welcome any technical or conceptual ideas you have to improve this and help increase interest amongst students. We have found that turning lecture slideshows into sets of exercises with clear visuals[https://www.instagram.com/p/C5ByftwiJ00/], breaking content up, and showing progress does motivate students to study more(and in a semi-related dissertation I wrote, possibly reduce Test Anxiety and tension). Please let me know of any ideas you have!
[+] [-] larsrc|1 year ago|reply
When you're motivated about something you can practice, you may remember more by doing it (which also acts a spaced repetition). But good luck trying that with, say, astrophysics or macroeconomics.
When motivated, you're also more likely to pick up other books on the subject, which is another form of spaced repetition.
[+] [-] ordu|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] wahnfrieden|1 year ago|reply
It combines reading and flashcards, such that it tracks every word and kanji you read and learn in order to show you analytics on what you need to learn to be able to read something or achieve JLPT goals, and highlights unknown/learning words in texts. Next up for the flashcard part is to replace the SM2 algorithm with FSRS for the flashcards, as well as having flashcards get passively reviewed simply by reading content.
I also suspect people are missing out on speed of learning when reviewing flashcards one at a time for hours. Besides actively recalling reviewing flashcards passively while reading, I’ll experiment with other review techniques like seeing a page at a time of vocab / revealable answers. Our minds absorb at the periphery of our vision and scanning/inputting a bunch of information at once, too. I’m unconvinced flashcard UI is the final expression of forgetting curve research based learning apps
Also working on Reader features such as manga/pdf/youtube/game emulators, plus expanding to all languages.
[+] [-] aflukasz|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] light_hue_1|1 year ago|reply
https://supermemo.guru/wiki/School_damages_your_brain
As someone who also publishes in neuroscience I can tell you this is total and utter trash.
[+] [-] trwhite|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] cod1r|1 year ago|reply
Then I have to go back and review.
Repeat.
[+] [-] consf|1 year ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] unknown|1 year ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] WaitWaitWha|1 year ago|reply
> Because people forget much of what they learn, students could benefit from learning strategies that provide long-lasting knowledge.
What learning strategies were taught in your secondary educational years?
[+] [-] Modified3019|1 year ago|reply
Unfortunately I kinda need to plan these sorts of days ahead, because trying to nap past 2PM is a good way to fuck my nighttime sleep.
[+] [-] michaelcampbell|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] westcort|1 year ago|reply
I say this as someone who works on education and as a lifelong learner who has tried many ways of improving retention.
[+] [-] ngetchell|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] bdjsiqoocwk|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] jppope|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] aledalgrande|1 year ago|reply