I just got back from a visit with family in Cumberland. It's the epitome of rust belt. What used to be a thriving manufacturing area has become an abandoned service-sector economy with low-wage jobs. Property values are dirt cheap, even for nice houses. There isn't much nearby, you have to travel hours from Pittsburgh to even get there by plane. Tales of theft of items like power tools from relatively remote farms are common. It doesn't look quite as bad as videos I've seen of poorer parts of Appalachia, but it's pretty close. I don't know how they will be able to afford this as the tax base has all but left and Cumberland is trying to pinch every penny they can to afford their over-compensated government staff. It's a pretty sad state of affairs, this seems more like a last-ditch marketing effort.
Sounds like a place I wouldn't mind working if I can find a remote position again. I'm a big introvert, and I would like to move somewhere more greener (getting tired of living in the middle of a bland hot dessert)
The area around Cumberland, mostly to the south towards Moorefield and Petersburg, WV, has a somewhat similar climate to the Tokaj region of Hungary, known for growing rare botrytized wines that sell for a fortune. I found this one day when I looked at the map of precipitation activity the US and saw an unexpected dry(ish) spot in northeastern West Virginia.
As a native Marylander I always find myself forgetting about Cumberland, which is a shame. As someone who has mostly lived in and around Baltimore, you head west to Frederick (aka Fredneck) for the small city in the middle of rural farmland. If you keep heading west you get to Hagerstown which feels way out there in farm country. And if you keep heading west you eventually move from farms to mountains and you hit Cumberland, which looks like a city that time forgot.
As other folks have commented, there’s some beautiful architecture and the old part of the city seems like it could be a bustling place. There’s a train station and easy access to the great outdoors. But the jobs have long gone and drug addiction has taken root for so many there. I don’t know the best way to revive a place like that but I hope something eventually works.
And if you travel farther west on 70, you'll eventually reach Wheeling, WVA. At one time its position on the Ohio river and near railroads made it a transportation hub, it made money in iron, textile, and logging - they used to float logs down the river. The vestige of wealth is still visible in its architecture, beautiful brick homes, ornate porches, windows and roofs. It's this glimmer into this past, not so far in the distance, that is so sad to witness. A lot of the town has fallen into disrepair, not slum exactly, but heading there. There is a central market building with some kitschy arts and crafts, and food stalls that supply tour buses. The buses come for Wheeling Island Casino, which has one of the last two remaining greyhound racetracks in the US. There's some attempt at preserving the historic buildings and downtown. People keep leaving, and the tourist attractions are more of a detour stop than a destination point. There used to be a pie stall - best pies in the US, handmade, fresh ingredients, $15, baked to order by a retired teacher. He sold the shop, his kids didn't want it, it was too much work and they made more money doing other things.
Sure, but problem Cumberland has same problem as rest of Appalachia, it's geography isn't very good. Mountain areas make everything 10x times harder to build.
Let's say some big software company wanted to build second HQ. Even if Cumberland was attractive in workforce, education options and so forth, the architects would say "Building your HQ2 is going to be rough. There isn't enough flat land, flooding could be problematic, fiber companies are screaming about the trenching" Not to mention, where are you going to put all your workers since housing will run into same problem. So if you wanted to stay in MD, somewhere like Hagerstown or Salisbury would be a better choice since usable land is plentiful.
Extrinsic monetary incentives are among the worst ways to stimulate growth. Anyone who would uproot their life for $10k is likely not the right personality to restore prosperity.
Other strategies have worked to gentrify depressed neighborhoods, like attracting bohemians or entrepreneurs with lower rents and tax relief, based on a strict qualification process.
cumberland is already quite bohemian. 20k for free, and some houses can be had for that amount, is quite appealing to the home-owning bohemian.
the only trick of it - said bohemian probably would need a remote job. not much locally. so the obvious play is to make it a remote paradise and focus the remainder of the economy on supporting both the essentials and the entertainment / night life of said remote worker
> The package, offering up to $20,000 is comprised of $10,000 in relocation cash, PLUS up to $10,000, dollar for dollar match, for approved renovations on an existing home, OR for a down payment on a newly constructed home within City limits.
Not “A $10k stipend is available for anyone moving to Cumberland, MD” as the submission title says currently , which sounded like a basic income.
Exactly. And they are going to reassess your property because you did renovations and get more than the $20k they gave you over time. Not even talking about the local taxes if you get a job there.
Sounds like a gift to current residents who want to leave:
"...receive $10,000.00 (“Program Incentive”) payable at closing of a home or upon proof closing has occurred... "
Meaning that it will help prop up prices for those selling.
AND/OR a gift for their local construction workers:
"... receive up to $10,000, dollar for dollar match, for approved renovations ... on an existing home ... or for a down payment on a newly constructed home ..."
This is pretty important. I suspect the people who are motivated by $2k a year to move there are not the people who are going to be bringing a large influx of capital to a place that very much needs it.
Although actually, it looks like there are two separate programs, which you can be eligible for both of: The relocation credit, and the restoration or down payment credit, which is more of a match, so the actual amount is more like $20k total.
That actually explains a lot. They are trying to expand their tax base. The improvements stipend will allow them to assess the property at a higher value!
...and at the current admin's burn rate of almost 10% GDP deficit / year via printing of money, that 10K gonna be worth more like 5k at the present clip in 5 years. Honestly, reducing gov't spending by 50% to fit within the confines of the tax base simply isn't going to happen. So, with that in mind, that 5k (in future real terms) to move to a state with terrible rental laws for landlords (if that's the long term goal) just simply doesn't make any sense at all.
I suspect these programs are mostly an attempt to claw back some people lost to the brain-drain that the region has been experiencing for decades. $10k over 5 years is not enough to seriously convince most people with no ties to the area to relocate there.
I have family roots in Cumberland and the nearby areas of West Virginia and MD and I still wouldn't consider moving back. But, if you still have a good relationship with family in the city and were already considering the move, this offer might look more compelling.
I believe Vermont also had a similar program for several years - offering a similar amount of money for people to move and work there in VT.
The racial makeup of the city was 89.4% White, 6.4% African American, 0.2% Native American, 0.9% Asian, 0.1% Pacific Islander, 0.3% from other races, and 2.8% from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino people of any race were 1.2% of the population.
There is a dedicated bicycle road connecting Cumberland with the National Mall in D.C. and which promises no cars, no pedestrians. Ten hours of pedaling mostly downhill.
That's the C&O canal towpath which, uh, there's definitely pedestrians there in places (I've done several hikes on portions of it). True about no cars, though.
I've personally enjoyed that kind of offer. My work is remote, my family isn't.
Not living in the US myself, but done similar in EU.
Living outside large cities is a plus factor these days. You can afford a house, commodities tend to be cheaper or you just grow them yourself. Kids go to a local school where you know everyone else, they make strong friendships and grow healthy in nature.
As anything else in life it's an individual balance. Knowing everyone can be as much a disadvantage; commodities can be cheaper but your earning potential can also be lower. The nearest airport could be several hours drive, and the only school around where all kids go sounds great until your kid gets bullied.
Have to live in Cumberland, MD for 5 years though.
Borders West Virginia and a key city in the Appalachian area. Some would say this region was day 0 of the opioid epidemic. As of 2020 census, population is largely (~89%) identified as Caucasian. Diversity is lacking. Median income reported at $45K.
Don’t know much besides what’s on paper, but I highly doubt most people on HN would integrate well here.
Wow, this is fascinating, my family is originally from Cumberland (actually Frostburg, but...). My mom was born and raised there, but left as soon as she could. Everybody did, and I don't think anyone from my family has been back there since my grandmother died decades ago.
It's really the eastern edge of Appalachia, but also very much a rust belt relic that depended on industries that are long, long gone (at least from that region). I think Kelly tires had a plant there when my mom was younger.
I've always wanted to go back and see it, just to compare it with my memories. It was in pretty steep decline already in the 70s and 80s, as even a kid could tell. I remember reading that they built a number of prisons nearby, also some across the border in Pennsylvania, but clearly that has not done enough to revitalize things.
It's a nice place, especially if you are outdoorsy, due to proximity to so much woodland and trail. I was very surprised with the architecture there. I've only stayed a couple nights (Trailhead for the Ragnar relay series)
I honestly do not get such programs, I'm from EU where equivalent programs exists in slightly different form (1€ old and abandoned homes for sale) and that's a total stupid initiative because people face MUCH bigger costs and still have no potential development in place.
Instead of proposing such gifts state a complete development programs: how do you count to augment the population enough to create room for a local bustling economy? A possible timeline and the current state of things? Tell me about local climate, hydro-geological stability, pollution and so on. You want people, convince them to be part of you project do not "buy them with candies". Convincing people to be part of a project means finding (if you succeed, of course) active people who can bring value to your community, otherwise you might collect some fool who will go soon or will remain as a burden to the community.
Those things are all pretty easily Googleable for anyone interested. Honestly, I would expect most people in the US to be able to answer most of those questions with reasonable accuracy without Googling.
The candies are to offset the downsides currently preventing people from moving there. Given its Appalachia, those downsides are probably a) bad, poorly maintained infrastructure, b) lack of jobs, c) lack of proximity to anything, and d) the surrounding poverty.
A lot of Appalachia struggles because the towns were built around a profitable industry, which then died. The town still has all that infra, but now has none of the tax base to pay for it.
They’re probably fine with someone who wants to build a McMansion they never leave, as long as they pay their tax bill and buy groceries in town to support local jobs. They honestly mostly need money. Appalachia is well known for their sense of community already, but also for their poverty.
Cumberland also happens to be where the Chesapeake and Ohio canal tow path terminates, and is a really nice 168 mile mostly off road dirt bike ride all the way to Washington DC. It has been extended all the way to Pittsburgh. So if you were into biking, Cumberland could be kind of a cool place to hang out.
They're taking the entire mean over the summertime, which isn't a useful metric IMO. If your days are 90, and your nights 60, you mean out around 75, despite it never really being 75 during the day where you can enjoy it. The average high in July is in the high 80s, which I think matches the entire region pretty closely.
It looks like a nice place. I know about a few similar programs in some towns in Europe. It is interesting to see something like this in some towns and cities in the US.
It seems like Zillow is full of people selling houses at 2x to 3x the estimate in Cumberland hoping to sell and run to whoever takes advantage of the relocation program. I see houses assessed at $90,000 in 2023 selling for $300,000. Give me a break.
"Assessed" doesn't mean much, there are many towns (such as my current town, and many others here in NJ) where houses all sell for a similar premium over the official assessed value.
The next question there would be how many of them had recently bought those properties - i.e. did they have a heads up from their friends on the City Council that this was coming down the line?
They will give you $10,000 cash, plus another $10,000 toward a renovation to a house you buy, or to a down-payment on a house you are required to buy, with a value of >$150K that you are required to live in for 5 years.
And you have to apply, and be approved, and undergo a casual interview by the city council.
And you have to be ready to move in within 6 months of approval.
And you have to be fully remote, have a local job, or be moving to cumberland in acceptance of a job...
----
They GIVE YOU NO FN REASON WHY you would want to move there.
The municipal website is a "Parks & Rec Fisher Price" as it comes, where the first link on "Populat links" is "Pay utilities"
There are no posted bid offereings (meaning no active project cumberland is seeking RFPs on)
And community events is barren...
So, why is this on HN?
It doesnt even give a nice GPT synpsis of what the heck cumberland is even about - Here, I GPTd it for them:
Is my math wrong or something? Did anyone actually look at the image?
---
Back when Detroit was doing super bad, and lots for huge Victorian and other nice architecture homes were going for ~$5,000 - there was a lot of chatter of a bunch of millenial-ish techies buy up a bunch of plots and start a tech-commune sort of adventure out there. (turned out the person organizing that effort was pulling a huge grift)
Maybe try to do a YC startup fund where "Hey heres free housing internet and utilities for your startup if you can prove "XYZ" -- like what about a visa program if some Hackers can come in and do a startup there and raise the economy where the city is invested in the startups? But have the program vetted by some panel of experts the city recruits
This could be attractive to people like my brother and his girlfriend. His job is remote and she's going to school for an art degree, mostly into ceramics and wood turning. They love the outdoors and this would be a good spot for them.
Mining towns are one of the examples of human hubris and stupidity I can't get my head around. If you build something in a shitty place just because there is a single resource you can sell, and everything else you have to import, then what do you expect will happen when said resource dries up? These places were meant for people to go temporarily, make serious money, and then go back to the city or countryside to build a life there, just like people who go to oil rigs do. Instead people brought their families and created an entire town or city in the middle of nowhere.
Now, the past is past and what's done is done. Can't we just acknowledge this basic reality and let these places die and move to better ones? Maybe thanks to the internet one day they will be repopulated by small tech companies operating from a single building with 100 computers and a fiber network, but until then why bullshit ourselves?
Deep-sea oil rigs don't grow into towns because there is no spare land to grow on - the "land" is an insanely expensive man-made structure whose size pushes against the limits of human engineering ability. But when oil is found on dry land or even in the sea close to shore, oil industry almost always results in significant urban growth - e.g. see Baku, Los Angeles, or Dubai.
In the olden days, these towns wouldn't pay you money, they would pay you scrip issued by the mining company[0]. This could only be used at company-operated stores, so miners were imprisoned in the towns. Moving back literally wasn't an option for the people that worked there, but if there was no other jobs around, where else could you go?
j_m_b|1 year ago
robotnikman|1 year ago
scythe|1 year ago
dfc|1 year ago
thelastparadise|1 year ago
Drive down any number of the "hollars," and you'll see an active smokehouse, yard litter, and an (often abused) wife sitting on the porch.
There are neighborhood kids endlessly circling the streets. An otherwise innocuous occurrence, however in this case the child is pushing 30 years old.
rjsw|1 year ago
dccoolgai|1 year ago
martinald|1 year ago
radpanda|1 year ago
As other folks have commented, there’s some beautiful architecture and the old part of the city seems like it could be a bustling place. There’s a train station and easy access to the great outdoors. But the jobs have long gone and drug addiction has taken root for so many there. I don’t know the best way to revive a place like that but I hope something eventually works.
devchix|1 year ago
stackskipton|1 year ago
Let's say some big software company wanted to build second HQ. Even if Cumberland was attractive in workforce, education options and so forth, the architects would say "Building your HQ2 is going to be rough. There isn't enough flat land, flooding could be problematic, fiber companies are screaming about the trenching" Not to mention, where are you going to put all your workers since housing will run into same problem. So if you wanted to stay in MD, somewhere like Hagerstown or Salisbury would be a better choice since usable land is plentiful.
lotsofpulp|1 year ago
You don’t. Times change, and what used to provide utility may no longer provide utility, and the only option is to move on.
tonymet|1 year ago
Other strategies have worked to gentrify depressed neighborhoods, like attracting bohemians or entrepreneurs with lower rents and tax relief, based on a strict qualification process.
QuantumGood|1 year ago
fasa99|1 year ago
soared|1 year ago
ckcheng|1 year ago
> The package, offering up to $20,000 is comprised of $10,000 in relocation cash, PLUS up to $10,000, dollar for dollar match, for approved renovations on an existing home, OR for a down payment on a newly constructed home within City limits.
Not “A $10k stipend is available for anyone moving to Cumberland, MD” as the submission title says currently , which sounded like a basic income.
ta988|1 year ago
Nifty3929|1 year ago
AND/OR a gift for their local construction workers: "... receive up to $10,000, dollar for dollar match, for approved renovations ... on an existing home ... or for a down payment on a newly constructed home ..."
khuey|1 year ago
anticorporate|1 year ago
Although actually, it looks like there are two separate programs, which you can be eligible for both of: The relocation credit, and the restoration or down payment credit, which is more of a match, so the actual amount is more like $20k total.
j_m_b|1 year ago
more_corn|1 year ago
yergi|1 year ago
billsmithaustin|1 year ago
tantalor|1 year ago
ktosobcy|1 year ago
jt2190|1 year ago
solid_fuel|1 year ago
I have family roots in Cumberland and the nearby areas of West Virginia and MD and I still wouldn't consider moving back. But, if you still have a good relationship with family in the city and were already considering the move, this offer might look more compelling.
I believe Vermont also had a similar program for several years - offering a similar amount of money for people to move and work there in VT.
lizknope|1 year ago
Historical population
peak was
1940 39,483
2020 19,076
It is still dropping
The racial makeup of the city was 89.4% White, 6.4% African American, 0.2% Native American, 0.9% Asian, 0.1% Pacific Islander, 0.3% from other races, and 2.8% from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino people of any race were 1.2% of the population.
I wish them luck but I don't want to live there.
Aspos|1 year ago
jcranmer|1 year ago
philipwhiuk|1 year ago
AndrewHampton|1 year ago
nunobrito|1 year ago
Not living in the US myself, but done similar in EU.
Living outside large cities is a plus factor these days. You can afford a house, commodities tend to be cheaper or you just grow them yourself. Kids go to a local school where you know everyone else, they make strong friendships and grow healthy in nature.
varjag|1 year ago
KennyBlanken|1 year ago
jeffbee|1 year ago
xyst|1 year ago
Borders West Virginia and a key city in the Appalachian area. Some would say this region was day 0 of the opioid epidemic. As of 2020 census, population is largely (~89%) identified as Caucasian. Diversity is lacking. Median income reported at $45K.
Don’t know much besides what’s on paper, but I highly doubt most people on HN would integrate well here.
brucelidl|1 year ago
It's really the eastern edge of Appalachia, but also very much a rust belt relic that depended on industries that are long, long gone (at least from that region). I think Kelly tires had a plant there when my mom was younger.
I've always wanted to go back and see it, just to compare it with my memories. It was in pretty steep decline already in the 70s and 80s, as even a kid could tell. I remember reading that they built a number of prisons nearby, also some across the border in Pennsylvania, but clearly that has not done enough to revitalize things.
khaki54|1 year ago
imglorp|1 year ago
TylerE|1 year ago
For instance, healthcare in Appalachia is generally terrible, as are the crime rates.
unknown|1 year ago
[deleted]
kkfx|1 year ago
Instead of proposing such gifts state a complete development programs: how do you count to augment the population enough to create room for a local bustling economy? A possible timeline and the current state of things? Tell me about local climate, hydro-geological stability, pollution and so on. You want people, convince them to be part of you project do not "buy them with candies". Convincing people to be part of a project means finding (if you succeed, of course) active people who can bring value to your community, otherwise you might collect some fool who will go soon or will remain as a burden to the community.
everforward|1 year ago
The candies are to offset the downsides currently preventing people from moving there. Given its Appalachia, those downsides are probably a) bad, poorly maintained infrastructure, b) lack of jobs, c) lack of proximity to anything, and d) the surrounding poverty.
A lot of Appalachia struggles because the towns were built around a profitable industry, which then died. The town still has all that infra, but now has none of the tax base to pay for it.
They’re probably fine with someone who wants to build a McMansion they never leave, as long as they pay their tax bill and buy groceries in town to support local jobs. They honestly mostly need money. Appalachia is well known for their sense of community already, but also for their poverty.
bcx|1 year ago
ChrisMarshallNY|1 year ago
Must be different, out there. I lived in MD for over ten years, and the average was ... slightly higher ...
It is real purdy, out there, though.
silisili|1 year ago
angellonunez|1 year ago
ApolloFortyNine|1 year ago
francisofascii|1 year ago
xyst|1 year ago
Not even once. Have you ever driven in DC metro? No thanks.
PLenz|1 year ago
spacemadness|1 year ago
streptomycin|1 year ago
FireBeyond|1 year ago
calmbonsai|1 year ago
kragen|1 year ago
throwaway984393|1 year ago
samstave|1 year ago
Read the fn offer:
They will give you $10,000 cash, plus another $10,000 toward a renovation to a house you buy, or to a down-payment on a house you are required to buy, with a value of >$150K that you are required to live in for 5 years.
And you have to apply, and be approved, and undergo a casual interview by the city council.
And you have to be ready to move in within 6 months of approval.
And you have to be fully remote, have a local job, or be moving to cumberland in acceptance of a job...
----
They GIVE YOU NO FN REASON WHY you would want to move there.
The municipal website is a "Parks & Rec Fisher Price" as it comes, where the first link on "Populat links" is "Pay utilities"
There are no posted bid offereings (meaning no active project cumberland is seeking RFPs on)
And community events is barren...
So, why is this on HN?
It doesnt even give a nice GPT synpsis of what the heck cumberland is even about - Here, I GPTd it for them:
https://i.imgur.com/mueJp1W.png
https://i.imgur.com/scpNTid.png
Is my math wrong or something? Did anyone actually look at the image?
---
Back when Detroit was doing super bad, and lots for huge Victorian and other nice architecture homes were going for ~$5,000 - there was a lot of chatter of a bunch of millenial-ish techies buy up a bunch of plots and start a tech-commune sort of adventure out there. (turned out the person organizing that effort was pulling a huge grift)
Maybe try to do a YC startup fund where "Hey heres free housing internet and utilities for your startup if you can prove "XYZ" -- like what about a visa program if some Hackers can come in and do a startup there and raise the economy where the city is invested in the startups? But have the program vetted by some panel of experts the city recruits
zoklet-enjoyer|1 year ago
whalesalad|1 year ago
brigade|1 year ago
dgfitz|1 year ago
Almondsetat|1 year ago
Now, the past is past and what's done is done. Can't we just acknowledge this basic reality and let these places die and move to better ones? Maybe thanks to the internet one day they will be repopulated by small tech companies operating from a single building with 100 computers and a fiber network, but until then why bullshit ourselves?
tetromino_|1 year ago
keiferski|1 year ago
overstay8930|1 year ago
matteoraso|1 year ago
[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_scrip
unknown|1 year ago
[deleted]