This is a seriously awesome office space that any developer looking for the urban lifestyle that NYC offers would be nuts to not want to work at. But Joel, you already have a fantastic reputation and should be able to recruit top talent based on your location, reputation, and because because you employ other smart people. That 500K of your own cash you put into that space depreciates over 39 years. You basically can't write it off until you move! I got stuck with over 200K in our last build-out that I'm still sitting on 3 years later. However if 500K is all you spent in addition to your lease with a standard buildout allowance, you got a great deal.
Like Joel, I bootstrapped a software company to similar size (25 employees). I did a calculation and we spend about 1.4% of our revenue today on 5,000 sqft of office space, but have outgrown it and it's no longer the nice spacious office we started with. 10,000 sqft of space in the best class A space in Western MA will cost about 3% of our 2009 expected revenue, with modest but nice build-out included. Given that this would be our 4th move in 6 years, I tend to be careful about long leases and lease buildouts.
I'd rather invest in paying good salaries, offering the best equipment and a nice (but not extravagant) work environment. Then I can afford to launch new products without being beholden to investors.
seriously nice diggs, cant imagine how much that place costs but they've got the cash and have a great outlook on getting ROI via recruiting and client WOW, certainly offers a differnt perspective to just getting bought. Why not built a super cool company that you love to work at instead?
I doubt it has a good ROI via recruiting, etc. Joel mentioned he spent more than a million on improving the interior design. No recruiting is going to make up for that, any time soon#. And in a few years Fog Creek will move to a different location again - at which point they'll have to build a new high end office.
So really, this seems to be a case of spending money to improve quality of life. The other benefits, such as for recruiting and PR are just a nice side effect.
#) Assuming 50 employees, over 5 years, the costs are roughly $4000 per employee per year. That's maybe 15% of their salary, probably less. Given the choice, I would probably give up 15% of my salary to work in a nice place with good food, a good view, good equipment, and so on.
My envy on this place is mighty (and all this from a bug tracker?), but is tempered by more annoyance at the Javascript nightmare that is Picasa. Why can't I middle-click to open pictures in new windows? Because Google Breaks The Browser. Top.
That looks like a pretty impressive office. It sounds like a successful recruiting tool; I would definitely like working in that environment.
What other companies put that much attention towards work environment? I know that a lot of popular startups tend to favor communal environments, but seeing actual offices is pretty rare. All of the places I've worked at tend to fall somewhere between decent to hellish cube nightmare.
I look at it and almost weep - but I feel like its TOO good. I've grown accustomed to the start-up feel of making do with what you have, spending big on a few items (chair, monitor) and having everything else made of cardboard..
It's got that not-quite-a-prison institutional look to it. That's great if you're running a high school in the poorest district in Mississippi, but given his budget [1] you'd think it would look nice.
I've got a private office, and the landlord charged my company nothing to throw up walls and doors in the empty space we rented. Maybe it's impossible to avoid Veblen goods in NYC, though.
Actually only the two interior offices have that layout. All the other offices have the desk facing a real wall with another behind it, and glass on the left and right.
Oh and the same room from another angle looks much less like a prison:
Why do the UI designers have to... wait a minute, there aren't any!
If he spent half the amount of money he spent on this amazing office for a kick ass UI team, he would increase sales by an enormous amount for Fogbugz. I know so many people who would switch if it wasn't so damn ugly and difficult to use. I don't think people use Lighthouse because it has better features.
I'm not sure recruiting desperate and socially akward dudes who are going to get all creepy weirdo on the female staff is the best recruitment strategy I've ever heard.
I want to second this --- I don't like working in places that are exclusionary, that privilege gender (or, say, ethnicity0 above talent. It's not about the eye candy. Generally places that you'd only want to work if you were male are not places I want to work.
Awesome! I just can't even imagine how Fog Creek makes enough money for all of this from mostly a single product. They must have tens of thousands of paying customers - which strikes me as incredibly strong for a niche as small as software development - kudos!
it is surprising that a story about someone moving to a new office makes into the front page of HN! the new office might have all the fancy features, but, there are a few things that annoy me:
1. I don't really care for all those fancy features and if I were considering joining a company those fancy features will be the last thing in my mind before I make a decision.
2. If one still has the urge to know who moved where and what they have got there then they can always find that in other sites (hardly HN stuff IMHO)
3. And the most annoying bit is that this story got to the front page while a lot of other threads that I found interesting and would have helped me become a better Hacker usually get a couple of points and pretty much no discussion at all.
I love HN and the community and still read a lot of interesting stuff here, but, I am beginning to feel that HN is slowly slipping away to be a site that also has a few genuine and invigorating posts/discussions about entrepreneurship and programming.
I work at a big software/hardware company. We have pretty much the same perks, same height adjustable long desks, aeron chairs (or you pick one based on the one you like) etc. Only thing I don't like is that there is no windows :-((.
Interesting. I work about a block away from that office; I take the 4/5 to Bowling Green every morning and usually walk past 55 B'way once or twice a week.
Knowing that Fog Creek is so close is tempting me to send in my resume... :)
I love how you're able to market your company. You just got about 14,000 top notch hackers to look and drool over your office space. It's a great recruiting tool.
[+] [-] bbither|17 years ago|reply
Like Joel, I bootstrapped a software company to similar size (25 employees). I did a calculation and we spend about 1.4% of our revenue today on 5,000 sqft of office space, but have outgrown it and it's no longer the nice spacious office we started with. 10,000 sqft of space in the best class A space in Western MA will cost about 3% of our 2009 expected revenue, with modest but nice build-out included. Given that this would be our 4th move in 6 years, I tend to be careful about long leases and lease buildouts.
I'd rather invest in paying good salaries, offering the best equipment and a nice (but not extravagant) work environment. Then I can afford to launch new products without being beholden to investors.
I really like the glass walls though...
[+] [-] j_b_f|17 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Mistone|17 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jd|17 years ago|reply
So really, this seems to be a case of spending money to improve quality of life. The other benefits, such as for recruiting and PR are just a nice side effect.
#) Assuming 50 employees, over 5 years, the costs are roughly $4000 per employee per year. That's maybe 15% of their salary, probably less. Given the choice, I would probably give up 15% of my salary to work in a nice place with good food, a good view, good equipment, and so on.
[+] [-] marbletiles|17 years ago|reply
[+] [-] shiranaihito|17 years ago|reply
1) Right-click on top of a picture, keep the button down.
2) Flick your mouse slightly downwards.
3) Release the right mouse button.
And there you go. Now, after checking out a picture, you'd want to close the newly opened tab, and get back to where you were:
1) Right-click, and hold
2) Move the mouse slightly downwards, and slightly to the right.
3) Release the mouse button
And there you go again. It doesn't take long to get comfortable with Opera's Mouse Gestures, and you'll realize they're very handy.
[+] [-] dbrush|17 years ago|reply
http://picasaweb.google.com/spolsky/FogCreekSNewOffice#52853...
[+] [-] babakian|17 years ago|reply
[+] [-] icey|17 years ago|reply
http://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=spolsky
[+] [-] unknown|17 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] swilliams|17 years ago|reply
What other companies put that much attention towards work environment? I know that a lot of popular startups tend to favor communal environments, but seeing actual offices is pretty rare. All of the places I've worked at tend to fall somewhere between decent to hellish cube nightmare.
[+] [-] Andys|17 years ago|reply
[+] [-] iron_ball|17 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bemmu|17 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mynameishere|17 years ago|reply
http://picasaweb.google.com/spolsky/FogCreekSNewOffice#52853...
Check out all of the famous series 7 chairs:
http://picasaweb.google.com/spolsky/FogCreekSNewOffice#52853...
It's got that not-quite-a-prison institutional look to it. That's great if you're running a high school in the poorest district in Mississippi, but given his budget [1] you'd think it would look nice.
I've got a private office, and the landlord charged my company nothing to throw up walls and doors in the empty space we rented. Maybe it's impossible to avoid Veblen goods in NYC, though.
[1] http://www.gibraltarfurniture.com/malik-mc-c-2201.html That's right. It's 300 dollars.
[+] [-] anewaccountname|17 years ago|reply
Wow; apparently my old highschool should sell the chairs in lunchroom to raise a quick million dollars.
[+] [-] d-rex|17 years ago|reply
Oh and the same room from another angle looks much less like a prison:
http://picasaweb.google.com/spolsky/FogCreekSNewOffice#52853...
[+] [-] jonknee|17 years ago|reply
That's just an absurd statement. The design is very high-end, perhaps you just don't like the modern look?
[+] [-] anthonyrubin|17 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dcurtis|17 years ago|reply
If he spent half the amount of money he spent on this amazing office for a kick ass UI team, he would increase sales by an enormous amount for Fogbugz. I know so many people who would switch if it wasn't so damn ugly and difficult to use. I don't think people use Lighthouse because it has better features.
Joel's priorities seem very odd to me.
[+] [-] staunch|17 years ago|reply
[+] [-] johns|17 years ago|reply
[+] [-] timr|17 years ago|reply
[+] [-] brm|17 years ago|reply
[+] [-] DavidMcLaughlin|17 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kragen|17 years ago|reply
[+] [-] newyorkcitywest|17 years ago|reply
But I don't think you'd want female developers. Female sales staff, female secretaries, etc.
Nice office, but without nice pussy, what's the point?
[+] [-] rams|17 years ago|reply
[+] [-] johns|17 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mmilenko|17 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] biohacker42|17 years ago|reply
At Bowdoin College the CS professors have offices with an awesome view and a shower and bathroom in each office.
[+] [-] petercooper|17 years ago|reply
[+] [-] iamelgringo|17 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cosmok|17 years ago|reply
I love HN and the community and still read a lot of interesting stuff here, but, I am beginning to feel that HN is slowly slipping away to be a site that also has a few genuine and invigorating posts/discussions about entrepreneurship and programming.
[+] [-] gubbersingh|17 years ago|reply
so no big deal, but windows are nice
[+] [-] VolatileVoid|17 years ago|reply
Knowing that Fog Creek is so close is tempting me to send in my resume... :)
[+] [-] huhtenberg|17 years ago|reply
[+] [-] iamelgringo|17 years ago|reply
I love how you're able to market your company. You just got about 14,000 top notch hackers to look and drool over your office space. It's a great recruiting tool.
[+] [-] Tichy|17 years ago|reply
[+] [-] danw|17 years ago|reply
[+] [-] adambox|17 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jfornear|17 years ago|reply