[api_or_ipa]

I'm a Canadian living in the states. The joke I tell my family is that I go to Canada to hear about US news. The other joke I have goes like this: the problem with Canada is that America thinks Canada is Europe, Europe thinks it's America and Canadians think they're American.

[screye]

Has anglo-Canada ever been meaningfully distinct from the US ?

It is as tightly bound to the US as Puerto Rico. I can't imagine Canada adopting economic, military or cultural policies that favor US enemies without being strong-armed out of it by the US.

It is a charged question, and I mean it as a hypothetical. But countries form through common language, culture, religion, geography, interests or trauma/war. Anglo-Canada and the US have all the good things in common and no war/trauma keeping them apart.

At times, Anglo-Canadians feel more distinct from French-Canadians than they do most Americans.

Ofc, if you've been a stable nation for century+, then there's no good reason to fix what's not broken.

[rerdavies]

French-Canadians are not anything like English Canadians, except in the minds of English Canadians who don't know any better. English Canadians like to think we are one great nation, but we are in fact two great nations, deeply divided (more than that if you include indigenous peoples, which you should).

French-speaking Quebecers self-identify as follows:

- Canadians first, and Quebecois second.

- Quebecois first, and Canadian second.

- Quebecois, and not Canadian at all.

The majority of French-speaking Quebecois do not self-identify as being in the first category, and a very significant percentage identify as being in the third category, with a plurality falling into the second category. I think it's safe to say that almost all French Canadians in Quebec identify as culturally Quebecois.

I lived in Quebec during the Cultural Revolution in the 80s, and was there for the first referendum, but I left because it became clear that Montreal was a bad place to be if I wanted to raise English-speaking children. In the end, I didn't feel any great need to pay for the sins of centuries of Quebec Anglophones that weren't my ancestors.

Once you wander outside of Montreal, into the countryside, dislike of Anglophones is common to the point that it feels almost dangerous, and gets even worse the closer you get to Quebec City.

In my experience, tolerance of Anglophones in Montreal has decreased dramatically in recent years. I was in a clothing store on St. Catherine, neer Bishop Street (once the heart of Anglophone Montreal). When two American tourists came in, and asked for help, the young shopkeeper responded: "On ne parle pas Anglais ici" (one does not speak English here).

A friend of mine graduated from a high school in Westmount (home to the Anglophone elite, most pointedly hated by Francophones). He said that of his friends in high school, none had remained in Quebec, because even though all of them spoke fluent French, being Anglophones, they were not able to find jobs.

[qball]

>if you've been a stable nation for century+

Quebec has tried to separate twice in the past 50 years, and comes within a Brexit's margin of actually getting it done (and if it wasn't for Montreal, they'd already be gone).

The seed of that separation was, naturally, caused by a military conflict between what would become Western Canada and what used to be Upper Canada.

Canada isn't actually as stable a country as Ottawa might have you believe.

[mbg721]

To me there's an uncanny-valley effect. Maybe it's the Looneys or the kilometres on the road signs, but it definitely feels the tiniest bit different.

[JumpCrisscross]

> Anglo-Canada and the US have all the good things in common and no war/trauma keeping them apart

We tried to annex them in 1812, but they were technically British so it doesn't count.

[mikrl]

>Anglo-Canada and the US have all the good things in common and no war/trauma keeping them apart.

It was on the table.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Plan_Red

From the Canadian perspective too, don’t think an American annexation of our landmass would go smoothly… Russians and Ukrainians are indistinguishable to an outsider and are currently unleashing centuries of built up ethnic turmoil on each other.

Anecdotal: I used to work with very right wing Canadian guys who cursed the name of the last president and called him all manner of names because of the trade war. These were the kind of guys who south of the border would have voted for him and bought the hat.

It’s not as simple as shared heritage == shared values.

[throwup238]

> no war/trauma keeping them apart.

Just this little hiccup: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_1812#Invasions_of_Canad...

Although with our cooperation at D-Day maybe Canada considers that water under the bridge.

[SECProto]

> I can't imagine Canada adopting economic, military or cultural policies that favor US enemies without being strong-armed out of it by the US.

I'd say Cuba is the exception that proves this rule

[hluska]

> I can't imagine Canada adopting economic, military or cultural policies that favor US enemies without being strong-armed out of it by the US.

Are you familiar with NATO? Clearly Canada wouldn’t do that - Canada can’t. But the existence of a treaty organization does not change how distinct we are.

As an example, school shootings. They’re far more rare here than population would dictate.

[Tiktaalik]

Every once in a while I come across some early mid century book that is handwringing about the increased "Americanization" of Canada so I think at some point perhaps there was more distinction. A lot of the anxieties around the free trade debates in the 1980s were about this.

But in general the relationships in NA work more North/South than East/West and the construction of Canada is fairly contrived. So while Canadians have a lot in common with Americans just across the border, this may be more regional cultural relationships. I would posit that your typical Seattle area Washingtonian has a more common culture with a nearby Vancouverite than they would with someone from Florida, Texas or New York.

[sbsudbdjd]

(Raised (fake) Canadian, living in the US)

I was in Canada last week and I saw a bunch of (real) English and (real) French Canadians. It dawned on me that the French Canadians resemble "redneck" Americans quite a lot more than the English whilst speaking a language that resembles French

The English Canadians (I wasn't in a major urban area, so these are what I call "real" Canadians) were quite different. Very reserved, low key and "proper". Unbearably stuffy.

[TMWNN]

>But countries form through common language, culture, religion, geography, interests or trauma/war. Anglo-Canada and the US have all the good things in common and no war/trauma keeping them apart.

Canada is indeed an anomaly. I can't think of another circumstance in which two countries that

* share land borders

* are 95% culturally, economically, and politically identical

* do not have longstanding historical grievances against each other

have not unified after two centuries; if anything, this fact implies that annexation is more likely than not to occur, perhaps sometime this century.

Americans on either side of politics think that Canada is full of super-leftists (and there is no shortage). But were Canada a part of the US in 2016, Trump would have won AB, SK, and quite possibly enough of the GTA (the parts that loved Rob Ford, and as "Ford Country" has repeatedly won the province for Doug Ford) to win ON, the province most resembling MI/WI/PA, the three states that Trump unexpectedly won the election with.

[Der_Einzige]

If you're advocating for Annexing Canada, or at least Quebec, there's a meaningful amount of support for this within Canada.

The only real opposition to this in the USA will come from conservatives who are upset at the large amount of "New Democratic" voters.

[hervature]

> Canadians think they're American

As a Canadian who is in the process of immigrating to the US, I feel that most Canadians think they are more similar to European than American. I'm basing this from having interacted with many Canadians during grad school in the US whom it would greatly trouble them if someone thought they were American. Perhaps it is a generational thing because I think my parents would probably say American if forced to choose but would say they are Canadians. Perhaps it is an international student perspective. I think most Canadians who think they are American just immigrate.

[GJim]

> As a Canadian who is in the process of immigrating to the US

Curious choice of words.

Why not 'emigrating' to the US?

[mensetmanusman]

That was definitely a thing during the Iraq war.

[JumpCrisscross]

> Canadians think they're American

In my experience, many (Anglo) Canadians behave like the coastal Americans who think of themselves as rather not American despite behaving very, very American.

[llm_trw]

I always find it funny how well coastal Americans diagnose the maladies that plague America while at the same time thinking they only infect inland Americans.

Case in point: America is a racist country. But the racial quotas in Ivy League Universities are perfectly fair. There is nothing wrong with punishing Chinese immigrants for the sins of English colonists from the two centuries ago.

[commercialnix]

"I am morally superior because I have the correct beliefs, as validated by the artificial applause on The Daily Show"

[jedberg]

> America thinks Canada is Europe

When I go to Montreal, I definitely feel this way. The rest of Canada feels pretty much like a clean America.

[ragebol]

LOL, I liked to describe Montreal as 'France done the American way' when I was there once for a week couple years ago.

[petre]

America without guns and racial violence, BLM, Trump. Although they did have the convoy protests, it didn't escalate into an attack on the Parliament like in the US.

[b112]

I know you're joking, and fair enough, but I cannot let this comment stand ... joke or not. Canadians do not remotely ever think they are Americans, at all. Not even subconsciously.

I have a great respect for the US. Realistically, feel the US is family, and like family, I love and care for it. Yet at the same time, sometimes I shake my head, wonder what my sibling is doing, baffled... often concerned out of care for them, sometimes out of self interest. Yet I still care, and want the best for them.. even if pissed off, angry, or upset with that sibling.

There is so much shared history, coupled with so much bafflement.

I guess the best way to put it, is the relationship Canada has with the US is exceptionally nuanced, and this holds true for many Canadians.

[abdullahkhalids]

As an immigrant to Canada, I don't think Canadians think of themselves as Americans, but they are way too much affected by what is happening in the US.

I bet if you rated all countries in the world by how much common people know and spend time looking at the internal politics of neighboring countries, Canada would be easily top 5. On the other hand, most countries outside North/South America have thousands of years of shared history, unlike the 3-4 hundred ones by (non-native) Americans.

In my opinion, Canadian should stop with this obsession and engage more with local politics.

[rootusrootus]

No worries, many of us south of that border are baffled as well.

But it's not like you guys are completely normal ;-). For example, Confederate flags are actually a thing in Canada. That's wild to me.

[TeaBrain]

I think the Canadian living in the US that you responded to was close to the mark. Most Americans have little contact with Canadians and many think of Canada abstractly, but not very accurately, as a European-like country located above the US. Beyond this abstract idea, most Americans don't have any reason to think about Canada on a regular basis.

Also, Canadians may not think of themselves as Americans, but young Anglo-Canadians are products of American culture. I roomed in college with one for a year and nothing was distinctly non-American about him besides the accent.

[peab]

Almost the entire Canadian identity is based around the fact that they aren't american

[switchbak]

This is 1000% correct. Canada is definitely not defined by "being American", or as Peter Zeihan would say: "passive-aggressively not-American".

Of course, when you're a small nation right next to the most powerful nation the world has ever seen, it's easy to have your media sphere be overwhelmed by the glut coming from south of the border. This is especially true as institutions like the CBC and NFB have come into increasing irrelevance while the internet replaces them. But this should not be misinterpreted as the country missing an identity or viewing itself as the same as the USA - that's simply not the case.

On a casual viewing, the similarity of external culture looks the same: we have the same shops, the same ugly modern strip malls, etc. We mostly look at talk somewhat the same, certainly in urban centers. But when you dive into the heart of our cultures, we had very different histories, and that's reflected in some big societal discrepancies. The USA is a bit of an outlier in a number of ways, and in many ways Canada resembles Scandinavian countries more than the USA.

[zeroCalories]

Canadian culture is a vague and vacuous hole with the strongest defining feature being their insistence that they're not Americans. Someone from the UK or Mexico is so uniquely different that these's never been any confusion, but Canadians are constantly coping over this. Reminds me of how Texas is always threatening to leave the country.

[randomdata]

> Canadians do not remotely ever think they are Americans, at all.

Nah. Canadians regularly see themselves as Americans with respect to political processes and laws. Presumably because of said American media consumption and believing what it portrays also applies to Canada.

[garrickvanburen]

The siblings metaphore is apt.

War Plan Red by Kevin Lippert suggests relations between the two countries is also similar to mutually annoyed suburban neighbors.

[8note]

Some examples of Canadians thinking they're Americans include the Convoy on the Canadian right larping as right wing Americans, and the "assault weapons ban" on the Canadian left larping as American Democrats.

Both of which aimed to solve for problems faced by Americans in America by doing something in Canada, when the same problems don't apply to Canada.

[reso]

Canadians who visit any major American city for a day think we're basically the same.

Canadians who visit for a year think we are totally different.

[rootusrootus]

When I was younger (decades ago...) Canada felt more 'exotic' than it does today. That may just be me getting older and less awed by new things, but I'm struck every time I visit by how much like America Canada is. Maybe that's why I like it so much. America but with universal health care :).

Disclaimer: I only ever go to BC (and I have lived in the PNW most of my life), so this might be a very biased hot take. I bet Quebec is a little bit different, as well as the other provinces & territories.

[qball]

There are between 4-7 major subcountries in Canada (for reference, the US has 11 of them) depending on how you count them.

Those are the West (everything west of Upper Canada), Upper Canada (triangle formed by Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal), Lower Canada (Quebec), and the Maritimes.

If you're going more granular, you have Newfoundland, which is very different from the rest of the Maritime provinces (they have their own dialect of English), the North (sparsely populated but the kind of Canadian that lives there is different), and to a point Vancouver and Vancouver Island.

Of those, the West is functionally the Midwest (Vancouver and Island are not meaningfully distinct from Seattle/Portland/Bay cities in terms of politics) where each province is flavored towards the State to its immediate south, Upper Canada is culturally NYC-DC North (and for that reason is as hostile to the rest of the country as NYC/DC are to the US in general), Lower Canada is French (obviously), and the Maritimes are the Rust Belt.

The reason for Upper Canada's insularity (and to a point, Lower Canada's) is its age and geography: as the US found out in 1812 it's very difficult to reinforce across the Great Lakes. As for the West, there might as well be no border at all, so commerce and culture move freely (it also helps that, because plentiful natural resources and space causes a freedom-focused outlook on human rights, most people who live in the West will naturally have that in common with their southern counterparts).

[switchbak]

Canada is being "Americanized", and the media and entertainment landscape is at the forefront of that.

I will say though, weighing in on a neighbouring nation while only having visited one of its provinces strikes me as a little bit conceited. A visit to BC is not going to give you much of a perspective of the diversity of this country.

Also: our health care is amongst the worst of the western nations at this stage. Subsequent governments have carved it away to be a shell of its former self.

[ThrowawayTestr]

Whenever I visit the states it feels like Canada just bigger

[peab]

I feel the same. Just look at accents of people back in the 90s compared to now

[hermitcrab]

I went to Vancouver last year. It my first time in Canada and I was surprised how similar to an American big city it felt.

[gosub100]

> America but with universal health care :).

And much lower wages and opportunities, but the same (or higher) housing prices. There's a reason you don't live there.

[bparsons]

A linguist friend once told me that language patterns in North America run north/south. For whatever reason, culture and migration seem to work the same way.

If you are from BC, you are more likely to travel to or move to California than you are Nova Scotia or Florida.

Likewise, if you are from Montana, you probably feel more comfortable in Alberta or Saskatchewan than you would in New York or Alabama.

While our governments function very differently, NAFTA has removed most of the institutional barriers preventing the natural movement of money, people and culture between the two places.

[b112]

What radio and then TV did, the Internet has continued. The world is shrinking, its cultures are merging, one day there will be one language, and one culture, or... maybe two yelling at each other.

I once heard, in the early 2000s, that more than 1/2 the languages spoken 150 years ago are gone.

[JohnFen]

> The joke I tell my family is that I go to Canada to hear about US news.

As an American, I get most of my US news from Canadian sources these days. They tend to be a whole lot better.

[ahazred8ta]

My ex-ca coworker's cousin is a mountie. Often as he's stuffing some miscreant into a squad car the guy will say "Hey, you didn't read me my rights."

[TMWNN]

Canada has its own equivalent of Miranda rights, as do many other countries. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_silence#Canada>

[t-3]

A funny thing is that reading the rights to the arrestee isn't even the law in much of the US.