What does a "Hello World" for something like this look like? Is it a API, do I push a docker image to it or something? How do you interact with this sort of system?
Ethical objections in this thread are a red herring.
Our brains are not that different than other primates' brains. We do abhorrent things to other primates that __demonstrably__ have similar experiential qualia as humans, mostly for the benefit of our species. But somehow objectioners are losing their marbles over a human cell cluster that has no more than a few thousand constituent cells.
The computational ability of human brains is an unintentional happenstance of billions of years of random-walk evolution; there's no reason to believe that we can't make systems that are even more efficient with intentional design. If these organoids get us there, I'm all for them.
The fact that we do more horrifying things to other species is not a justification.
We shouldn't be doing those things. The fact our legal structures haven't banned them yet does not invalidate the ethical concerns about using human brain tissue in this manner.
It's not just a cell cluster, it's a cluster of brain cells, the organ that is most likely linked to consciousness. We don't understand how that organ is linked to consciousness, so we don't know at what point and structure a cluster of neurons would develop it. Given that, this is an extremely dangerous path to start walking down.
>Our brains are not that different than other primates' brains. We do abhorrent things to other primates that __demonstrably__ have similar experiential qualia as humans, mostly for the benefit of our species. But somehow objectioners are losing their marbles over a human cell cluster that has no more than a few thousand constituent cells.
This is some kind of strawman. I'm confident that people who are against human cell cluster torture are also against primate torture. Or at least make the mental calculus required to justify it.
Putting the ethical dilemmas aside, I'd like to know how such bioprocessors could possibly have:
>million times greater power efficiency when compared to digital processors
if bioprocessors have to support("run" the metabolism) all their organelles, including parts that are not at all involved in the signal processing, which is I suppose >99% of the cell, compared to digital processors that we literally built with the sole purpose of performing such operations and have logical gates close in size to the single layer of atoms already?
What did we miss in the design?
Much fewer electrons have to move for a detectable chemical reaction than a detectable electric current. Solid state systems are just much less efficient at computations, but they are much easier to organize.
Compare a copy operation on a DNA sequence in a cell with a copy in a memory, the cell does it extremely cheaply since it is a simple chemical reaction while the memory has to flow electrons in a giant network of nodes. You can easily copy exabytes of data using chemistry (DNA) with almost no energy.
The Matrix official canon is that humans were being used for energy, which didn’t really make sense until you interpret that as using humans as highly efficient information processors. This company does awfully seem like step 0 here.
Maybe I'm too cautious, but - from what I understand our research into consciousness isn't very thorough. Meaning, we do not know the causes and thresholds for consciousness.
So, to me, it seems like until that threshold is very clearly established, any work with 'organoids' is hazardous at best, but more than likely just wildly inappropriate.
They're grown from stem cells. Neuro-ethics (especially the ethics around using brain organoids) is an entire field of research. Although brain organoids exhibit neural connections and electrical activity, they have so far failed to form even basic synaptic circuits — without which consciousness is probably impossible. But of course we should take every precaution to ensure that they DON'T form consciousness. But that's still a ways away.
I was once contacted by FinalSpark where they offered free early remote access to use their biocomputing platform. The platform is accessible remotely and allows experiments on neurospheres made from living cells, sitting in an incubator, in their lab, in Vevey, Switzerland. A neurosphere is a round structure build out of approximately 10’000 neurons, connected to electrodes in different places. The platform uses python scripts to communicate with the neuron allowing for various functionalities, such as: Stimulate living neurons, Read data from neurons, Log all the data in a database, and Display graphically the results of experiments for further analysis.
I was too busy to come up with a clear project idea that could beat alreadty existing stuff such as neurons playing Doom [0] (not related to FinalSpark). Still waiting for someone to show something cool using this platform.
As someone actually in this space, does the "rental" concept give you any concerns about the quality of research this can support? Like, if the previous customer's use of the organoids will have stateful impacts that impact what you observe? It strikes me that with conventional computers in the cloud we have pretty straight-forward assurances that each customer gets the instance in a fresh state.
@finalspark: This was inevitable, please don't read this as anything other than constructive criticism; I am sure you are aware of the rat cells flying F-22 sim's in unlandable weather a decade+ ago.
Can branding hide consciousness? Hopefully not, and if not, can your group please trail blaze a ethical path if it decides it encountered it? I realize this is a "use less" or "don't do that at all" scenario, and other actors are going to enslave larger brains if they can grow them.
My intuition is larger billion+^ structures are long off, but that might not be the case. It's possible a oscillating pressure vessel with the right conditions (robust input/output feedback) may negate the need for a conventional circulatory system.
This is pretty cool. Feel somewhat dystopic though I suppose that's inevitable. I wonder how easy it will be to develop and scale this technology, given that it's housing organic entities with life support systems.
It always amuses me whenever a biology story here gets the tech crowd quivering, when they would normally be crowing gleefully about ASI and human obsolescence.
A brain is more energy efficient than a chip, but how a couple of cells connected to wires has more economic sense than a chip with gallizions of transistors?
And really, can you? GPT might not be an expert in every field, but it does better than the average person at average things. It is already cheaper than a human for some tasks, because it can do so many, and fast, if looking at a hourly rate.
This falls squarely into the "Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they never stopped to consider whether they should" category.
There are so many unknowns with potentially horrifying answers.
We don't know what generates human consciousness. But we know the brain is a key part of it. At what point does a bunch of lab grown human neurons become conscious? Can it become conscious outside of a body? What would that experience be like if a lab grown brain used as a computer developed consciousness? And what would happen to that consciousness?
The potential energy savings aren't worth risking the potential horror.
> What would that experience be like if a lab grown brain used as a computer developed consciousness? And what would happen to that consciousness?
That's my concern as well, because I think it would go insane almost instantly. This would also render the whole project useless, you can't reasonably expect an insane brain to yield correct results. Or would it be a double trapped brain existing as chip, unable to move or communicate, witnessing it's neurons being used as a computing resource, but without being able to do anything about it.
It's very very scary, and there needs to be a process for testing for any type of consciousness and a plan for what to do if it's detected, I recommend just killing it instantly to prevent any suffering.
> We don't know what generates human consciousness. But we know the brain is a key part of it. At what point does a bunch of lab grown human neurons become conscious?
Why just human neurons for a human consciousness?
We know very little of what sparkle consciousness but the consensus seems to be that most living things experience it with varying degree. Even though most of us, conscious humans, are absolutely fine with millions of mammals being slaughtered without much care for their feelings.
Honestly not sure why these aren't. Surely there are no observable differences at such tiny scale and using human cells just makes you a target of wrath.
This doesn't much bother me, but I also find it pointless. These will not be reproducible or easily manufactured. Maybe good for neuroscience experiments?
Now, chimeric animals made with addition of human stem cells, that would have significant ethical problems.
[+] [-] UtQ8CJ6Tdr|1 year ago|reply
Tech Company: At long last, we have created the Torment Nexus from classic sci-fi novel Don't Create The Torment Nexus
[+] [-] finalspark|1 year ago|reply
I will be happy to try to answer any other questions!
[+] [-] humansareok1|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] willcipriano|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] salmonfamine|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] fallingfrog|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|1 year ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] chaos_emergent|1 year ago|reply
Our brains are not that different than other primates' brains. We do abhorrent things to other primates that __demonstrably__ have similar experiential qualia as humans, mostly for the benefit of our species. But somehow objectioners are losing their marbles over a human cell cluster that has no more than a few thousand constituent cells.
The computational ability of human brains is an unintentional happenstance of billions of years of random-walk evolution; there's no reason to believe that we can't make systems that are even more efficient with intentional design. If these organoids get us there, I'm all for them.
[+] [-] dbingham|1 year ago|reply
We shouldn't be doing those things. The fact our legal structures haven't banned them yet does not invalidate the ethical concerns about using human brain tissue in this manner.
It's not just a cell cluster, it's a cluster of brain cells, the organ that is most likely linked to consciousness. We don't understand how that organ is linked to consciousness, so we don't know at what point and structure a cluster of neurons would develop it. Given that, this is an extremely dangerous path to start walking down.
[+] [-] humansareok1|1 year ago|reply
This is some kind of strawman. I'm confident that people who are against human cell cluster torture are also against primate torture. Or at least make the mental calculus required to justify it.
[+] [-] mensetmanusman|1 year ago|reply
It seems the universe in the form of humans was meant to contemplate itself.
[+] [-] debo_|1 year ago|reply
> When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission.
Tom's Hardware was one affiliate link away from bumping the cyberpunk index of this article to 11.
[+] [-] HPsquared|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] didymospl|1 year ago|reply
>million times greater power efficiency when compared to digital processors
if bioprocessors have to support("run" the metabolism) all their organelles, including parts that are not at all involved in the signal processing, which is I suppose >99% of the cell, compared to digital processors that we literally built with the sole purpose of performing such operations and have logical gates close in size to the single layer of atoms already? What did we miss in the design?
[+] [-] Jensson|1 year ago|reply
Compare a copy operation on a DNA sequence in a cell with a copy in a memory, the cell does it extremely cheaply since it is a simple chemical reaction while the memory has to flow electrons in a giant network of nodes. You can easily copy exabytes of data using chemistry (DNA) with almost no energy.
[+] [-] EwanG|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] DevX101|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] bell-cot|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] CatWChainsaw|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] nerdjon|1 year ago|reply
This seems... questionable at best. Not really comfortable with the idea of this...
[+] [-] Loughla|1 year ago|reply
So, to me, it seems like until that threshold is very clearly established, any work with 'organoids' is hazardous at best, but more than likely just wildly inappropriate.
Am I being a luddite?
[+] [-] throwaway24124|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] amphitoky|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] artninja1988|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] seesawtron|1 year ago|reply
I was too busy to come up with a clear project idea that could beat alreadty existing stuff such as neurons playing Doom [0] (not related to FinalSpark). Still waiting for someone to show something cool using this platform.
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEXefdbQDjw
[+] [-] abeppu|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] jakeogh|1 year ago|reply
Can branding hide consciousness? Hopefully not, and if not, can your group please trail blaze a ethical path if it decides it encountered it? I realize this is a "use less" or "don't do that at all" scenario, and other actors are going to enslave larger brains if they can grow them.
My intuition is larger billion+^ structures are long off, but that might not be the case. It's possible a oscillating pressure vessel with the right conditions (robust input/output feedback) may negate the need for a conventional circulatory system.
[2020] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22087410
[+] [-] nusl|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] maratc|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|1 year ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] waiquoo|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] CatWChainsaw|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] debo_|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] f6v|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] nahuel0x|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] newsclues|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] FrustratedMonky|1 year ago|reply
And really, can you? GPT might not be an expert in every field, but it does better than the average person at average things. It is already cheaper than a human for some tasks, because it can do so many, and fast, if looking at a hourly rate.
[+] [-] xaellison|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|1 year ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] dbingham|1 year ago|reply
There are so many unknowns with potentially horrifying answers.
We don't know what generates human consciousness. But we know the brain is a key part of it. At what point does a bunch of lab grown human neurons become conscious? Can it become conscious outside of a body? What would that experience be like if a lab grown brain used as a computer developed consciousness? And what would happen to that consciousness?
The potential energy savings aren't worth risking the potential horror.
[+] [-] mrweasel|1 year ago|reply
That's my concern as well, because I think it would go insane almost instantly. This would also render the whole project useless, you can't reasonably expect an insane brain to yield correct results. Or would it be a double trapped brain existing as chip, unable to move or communicate, witnessing it's neurons being used as a computing resource, but without being able to do anything about it.
It's very very scary, and there needs to be a process for testing for any type of consciousness and a plan for what to do if it's detected, I recommend just killing it instantly to prevent any suffering.
[+] [-] sgu999|1 year ago|reply
Why just human neurons for a human consciousness?
We know very little of what sparkle consciousness but the consensus seems to be that most living things experience it with varying degree. Even though most of us, conscious humans, are absolutely fine with millions of mammals being slaughtered without much care for their feelings.
[+] [-] anileated|1 year ago|reply
— Conner O’Malley (in his excellent “Standup Solutions”)
[+] [-] hiatus|1 year ago|reply
https://youtu.be/bEXefdbQDjw?si=-YVEmZhSrkgBj3I9
[+] [-] hoseja|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] pfdietz|1 year ago|reply
Now, chimeric animals made with addition of human stem cells, that would have significant ethical problems.
[+] [-] artninja1988|1 year ago|reply