He's not yet freed from custody AFAIK, but my interpretation of the word "custody" in English may be lacking.
The initial police examination/interrogation has ended ("garde à vue"), and he's now been brought before a judge who will decide if he should be freed or kept in an actual jail (which a police station isn't).
Until the judge makes that decision he's still very much detained by the police (albeit not interrogated).
In the USA police can generally hold someone for 24-48hours before actual charges are filed (it takes a minute to generate an indictment), allowing them to investigate and interrogate.
Then, if an indictment is filed a judge makes a decision on pre-trial confinement until trial. In France there is a general four month limit on pre-trial confinement before it has to be heavily justified.
This is like in the USA where police can generally hold someone for 24-48hours before actual charges are filed (it takes a minute to generate an indictment), allowing them to investigate and interrogate.
Then, if an indictment is filed a judge makes a decision on pre-trial confinement until trial. In France there is a general four month limit on pre-trial confinement before it has to be heavily justified.
Durov is a high flight risk (money, private jet, foreign citizenship), so the judge will have to factor that in. IF there is an indictment.
If I'm understanding the article, the headline for it is terrible, because he is still absolutely detained, just the type of detention has changed from "police custody" to "enforced court appearance", which may well put him in a different type of legal detention ... so in no way is he "freed".
Also:
> The Kremlin said ... 'very serious' and warned ...
Do any NATO members take Kremlin warnings seriously any more? It seems clear that the Russians will already do anything they think they can get away with (cf Skripal)
People are up in arms about this and the "stifling of free speech," but it seems like there is only one sentence in this article that really matters:
> "Telegram refused to share information or documents with investigators when required by law."
Am I the only one who thinks that if you are a global company operating in a country and you refuse to comply with a lawful subpoena in that country, no one should be surprised when you get arrested? If they cannot comply, due to encryption, or a lack of logging, that may be a different story. But no one has stated or implied that anywhere I have seen.
People make these equivalences to other social media platforms, but alas it is the only social media I use where I frequently see stuff like IS recruitment videos in larger groups. That is, professionally produced videos in my local language. It's always the same videos as well, so you'd think they at least ban known bad files by hash or something, but nope, they get removed manually by the group's mods hours later.
Wow, I've never heard anything like that before (never used TG). Do you mind sharing what language that is? (or language family, ie. Germanic, Semitic, Sinitic etc.) Also, IIRC, the Taliban has used WhatsApp in official capacities.[0] Obviously IS and Taliban are not nearly the same, just thought it was worth mentioning. WhatsApp does not have the same public groups as TG so I guess you would have to already be in an IS adjacent WhatsApp group to get videos from them.
Honest question for this group: Does anyone actually believe Telegram has any sort of privacy? Like, I assume all your TG data is available to the Kremlin in the same way that all your TikTok data is available to the CCP.
I can’t comment on any specifics of his arrest, but it sure indicates they got the right person if Russian and Saudi governments start talking about freedoms and injustice.
IIRC he was basically kicked out of Russia for not censoring VK. Things could have changed but I don't think visits to Russia (where he has friends and family) is necessarily proof that he is giving data to Russia. Also, Telegram seems to have been banned in Russia at times, although I do not know the specific details.
> Honest question for this group: Does anyone actually believe Telegram has any sort of privacy?
Yes.
Russian authorities obviously have access. But they only use this access sparingly. If you're not personally targeted by the FSB, you're OK, even Russian regular police doesn't have access to it.
His brother Nikolai who is a co-founder of Telegram and who is said to have developed the encryption protocol in Telegram lives in Russia according to some sources. His LinkedIn page indicates California as residence, however.
BTW, Nikolai's wiki page states he won three gold medals at an International Mathematics Olympiad and once a gold International Olympiad in Informatics as well as a gold medal in the ACM International Collegiate Programming Contest. I'd say he is well qualified to design crypto algos if he put his mind to it.
Politico claims to have (exclusively) seen a French administrative document that narrows the focus to a single case where Telegram did not respond to legal request for user information. Copied from the article, here are a few key points:
> The arrest warrants were issued after the messaging platform gave "no answer" to an earlier judicial request to identify a Telegram user, according to the document, which was shared with POLITICO by a person directly involved in the case.
> Warrants for Pavel and his brother Nikolai, the platform’s co-founder, were issued on March 25 over charges including “complicity in possessing, distributing, offering or making available pornographic images of minors, in an organized group.”
> The warrants were issued after an undercover investigation into Telegram led by the cybercrime branch of the Paris prosecutor's office, during which a suspect discussed luring underaged girls into sending "self-produced child pornography," and then threatening to release it on social media.
> The suspect also told the investigators he had raped a young child, according to the document. Telegram did not respond to the French authorities’ request to identify the suspect.
> There’s no suggestion either of the Durov brothers were directly involved in any of the illegal activities identified by the investigation.
At first people expected him to be jailed, because he obviously has means to leave France and never get caught again, but then analysts pointed out that he knew there was a warrant in France to get him and that he decided to land in France anyway, so they raised the question that maybe he came voluntarily in order to strike a deal with French authorities.
The fact that he's now free from custody sounds like this analysis was likely the right one.
> The fact that he's now free from custody sounds like this analysis was likely the right one.
Or they released him because they're required to by law? Normally they need to release you after 24h, but in some cases of organized crime or terrorism, they can extend it to 72+h.
> he knew there was a warrant in France to get him
Do you have a reference for this claim? I've read this here or there, but always without any evidence. Was the arrest warrant public before he decided to land in France?
Regardless of what did or did not happen the whole thing smells to high heaven. This is analogous to when authorities take your device out of your sight. It must be considered compromised after that.
If that were the case, why did they make such a fuss in the media about arresting him though? If they wanted to make a deal with him that wouldn't really be helpful.
Personally I think the legal basis for his arrest is just so thin that bail was granted. After all he is not personally responsible. The buck stops with him, sure but he didn't personally partake in any of the alleged activity on telegram.
Keeping a person in custody is a very heavy measure that a judge won't grant lightly.
some American media is reporting that his personal cell phone was hacked for a long time before this arrest. One implication is that he is personally "dirty" in some real way -- so the story essentially supports the arrest and charges.
Since this is high public profile by definition, expect lots more questionable spin to come.. IMHO
We already know how this will end. Russia will arrest a few French tourists on trumped up charges and they'll sit in a sad Russian jail until Macron intervenes and lets Durov go. It's the same playbook over and over. Durov is like the Russian Mark Zuckerberg, people at this level are not touchable by the law if they have the czar's favor.
No clue if this will happen, or how much of a good/bad thing it would be. But it would sure be funny to happen after Macron publicly stated the executive had nothing to do with the arrest. Guess the judiciary is independent... some of the time.
Now this thing goes in since a few days. Are I'm the only one who wonder, why France does not release a proper press release? Is this really a country in central Europe, they catch a super public figure and just .. say nothing?!?
I heard an interview with the guy who actually smuggled him out a while ago, he was an ex special forces soldier who ended up getting caught hand did a bunch of time for it. It’s a pretty crazy story. He certainly wasn’t the same person after that experience.
It is not that hard. I have my birth citizenship. But my grandpa was an Italian, so it entitled me to obtain Italian citizenship. My wife's grandpa and grandma are portuguese, so this entitles her, and me as her husband to portuguese citizenship. And I am not rich as Mr Durov, if I was, probably I'd have a few more passports for business and tax purposes.
I feel like it only comes across as dodgy because of the jason-bourne genre of spy flicks where agents have stacks of passports and alternate identities
What's dodgy about having multiple countries consider you respectable enough ( slash rich enough ) to issue you citizenship?
Have to assume they are about to arrest the CEO's of all of the largest internet providers in France for the same reasons. If not then this is absolutely a political decision and France has decided to punish anyone daring to allow people to speak without government supervision.
[+] [-] bambax|1 year ago|reply
The initial police examination/interrogation has ended ("garde à vue"), and he's now been brought before a judge who will decide if he should be freed or kept in an actual jail (which a police station isn't).
Until the judge makes that decision he's still very much detained by the police (albeit not interrogated).
[+] [-] qingcharles|1 year ago|reply
In the USA police can generally hold someone for 24-48hours before actual charges are filed (it takes a minute to generate an indictment), allowing them to investigate and interrogate.
Then, if an indictment is filed a judge makes a decision on pre-trial confinement until trial. In France there is a general four month limit on pre-trial confinement before it has to be heavily justified.
[+] [-] aksfdH|1 year ago|reply
The AP article is rambling and disappointing, literally the DailyMail has a more coherent coverage:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13788495/telegram-f...
[+] [-] qingcharles|1 year ago|reply
This is like in the USA where police can generally hold someone for 24-48hours before actual charges are filed (it takes a minute to generate an indictment), allowing them to investigate and interrogate.
Then, if an indictment is filed a judge makes a decision on pre-trial confinement until trial. In France there is a general four month limit on pre-trial confinement before it has to be heavily justified.
Durov is a high flight risk (money, private jet, foreign citizenship), so the judge will have to factor that in. IF there is an indictment.
[+] [-] petesergeant|1 year ago|reply
Also:
> The Kremlin said ... 'very serious' and warned ...
Do any NATO members take Kremlin warnings seriously any more? It seems clear that the Russians will already do anything they think they can get away with (cf Skripal)
[+] [-] mariusor|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] eightysixfour|1 year ago|reply
> "Telegram refused to share information or documents with investigators when required by law."
Am I the only one who thinks that if you are a global company operating in a country and you refuse to comply with a lawful subpoena in that country, no one should be surprised when you get arrested? If they cannot comply, due to encryption, or a lack of logging, that may be a different story. But no one has stated or implied that anywhere I have seen.
[+] [-] akira2501|1 year ago|reply
That a government would arrest a CEO in an effort to solve this problem shows that there's more going on than a simple legal dispute.
> If they cannot comply, due to encryption, or a lack of logging, that may be a different story.
France has proven capable of blocking services. They can't block this if it's so damaging to the French republic?
[+] [-] jadtz|1 year ago|reply
But some countries want to have their cake and eat it too.
[+] [-] lucianbr|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] ivan_gammel|1 year ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] sva_|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] fngjdflmdflg|1 year ago|reply
[0] https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/17/world/asia/taliban-whatsa...
[+] [-] martythemaniak|1 year ago|reply
Honest question for this group: Does anyone actually believe Telegram has any sort of privacy? Like, I assume all your TG data is available to the Kremlin in the same way that all your TikTok data is available to the CCP.
[+] [-] Zanfa|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] fngjdflmdflg|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] golergka|1 year ago|reply
Yes.
Russian authorities obviously have access. But they only use this access sparingly. If you're not personally targeted by the FSB, you're OK, even Russian regular police doesn't have access to it.
[+] [-] TremendousJudge|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] 331c8c71|1 year ago|reply
BTW, Nikolai's wiki page states he won three gold medals at an International Mathematics Olympiad and once a gold International Olympiad in Informatics as well as a gold medal in the ACM International Collegiate Programming Contest. I'd say he is well qualified to design crypto algos if he put his mind to it.
[+] [-] bcn|1 year ago|reply
> The arrest warrants were issued after the messaging platform gave "no answer" to an earlier judicial request to identify a Telegram user, according to the document, which was shared with POLITICO by a person directly involved in the case.
> Warrants for Pavel and his brother Nikolai, the platform’s co-founder, were issued on March 25 over charges including “complicity in possessing, distributing, offering or making available pornographic images of minors, in an organized group.”
> The warrants were issued after an undercover investigation into Telegram led by the cybercrime branch of the Paris prosecutor's office, during which a suspect discussed luring underaged girls into sending "self-produced child pornography," and then threatening to release it on social media.
> The suspect also told the investigators he had raped a young child, according to the document. Telegram did not respond to the French authorities’ request to identify the suspect.
> There’s no suggestion either of the Durov brothers were directly involved in any of the illegal activities identified by the investigation.
-https://www.politico.eu/article/exclusive-telegram-ceo-broth...
[+] [-] littlestymaar|1 year ago|reply
At first people expected him to be jailed, because he obviously has means to leave France and never get caught again, but then analysts pointed out that he knew there was a warrant in France to get him and that he decided to land in France anyway, so they raised the question that maybe he came voluntarily in order to strike a deal with French authorities.
The fact that he's now free from custody sounds like this analysis was likely the right one.
[+] [-] deadlydose|1 year ago|reply
Or they released him because they're required to by law? Normally they need to release you after 24h, but in some cases of organized crime or terrorism, they can extend it to 72+h.
https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/codes/article_lc/LEGIARTI0000...
[+] [-] red_trumpet|1 year ago|reply
Do you have a reference for this claim? I've read this here or there, but always without any evidence. Was the arrest warrant public before he decided to land in France?
[+] [-] bleuchase|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] morkalork|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] wkat4242|1 year ago|reply
Personally I think the legal basis for his arrest is just so thin that bail was granted. After all he is not personally responsible. The buck stops with him, sure but he didn't personally partake in any of the alleged activity on telegram.
Keeping a person in custody is a very heavy measure that a judge won't grant lightly.
[+] [-] jonathanstrange|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] cm2012|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] mananaysiempre|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] mistrial9|1 year ago|reply
Since this is high public profile by definition, expect lots more questionable spin to come.. IMHO
[+] [-] vaylian|1 year ago|reply
Can you please provide a source?
[+] [-] ararar|1 year ago|reply
No, he won't.
[+] [-] Invictus0|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] lucianbr|1 year ago|reply
No clue if this will happen, or how much of a good/bad thing it would be. But it would sure be funny to happen after Macron publicly stated the executive had nothing to do with the arrest. Guess the judiciary is independent... some of the time.
[+] [-] _trampeltier|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] axegon_|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] kklisura|1 year ago|reply
[1] https://www.bbc.com/news/business-57760993
[+] [-] mdhb|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] Eumenes|1 year ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] unknown|1 year ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] option|1 year ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] barbazoo|1 year ago|reply
What crazy labor laws exactly?
[+] [-] 2OEH8eoCRo0|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] CretinDesAlpes|1 year ago|reply
So four citizenships? It's getting hard not look at this as dodgy.
[+] [-] elzbardico|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] sandworm101|1 year ago|reply
Well, if he dodges this warrant by fleeing, Telegram will be persona non grata across western Europe.
[+] [-] jazzyjackson|1 year ago|reply
What's dodgy about having multiple countries consider you respectable enough ( slash rich enough ) to issue you citizenship?
[+] [-] odiroot|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] wonderwonder|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] paxys|1 year ago|reply