Removing/blocking apps deprives users who benefit from these apps. That's the actual freedom violation but for some reason a lot of people are ready to accept it as solution. It's very sad actually.
Just lock up the people responsible for the problems, why would you deprive people from the products the use?
A future I want to live is a future where offenders get punished, not a future where I'm dissolved of using products that offenders used to offend.
The practical effect of locking up "the people responsible" though (if there's any actual guilt), at least in this case, would deprive people of the product: Durov is the key person for basically all things re Telegram, so his not being available to take care of said things would lead to its eventual death.
> A future I want to live is a future where offenders get punished, not a future where I'm dissolved of using products that offenders used to offend.
So with that said, you're actually against the arrest of Pavel Durov as I understand it? As he's being arrested for not committing any crimes, but for not giving information about the people who are committing the actual crimes.
Sure, but then don't blame the app, because exactly as the gp stated: you cannot have the cake and eat it too.
I mean, I don't want it to sound simplistic. Situation is kinda novel (meaning, it wasn't possible 200 years ago). Basically every POV in this entire discussion makes sense to me. Like, it absolutely makes sense for a government to be hostile to somebody who doesn't comply with their requests, and given that in this situation that somebody happens to be a french citizen... well, it's almost like he was asking for it.
But regardless of what reasoning I could provide in behalf of the opposing side, my personal desire is that all governments and all courts to go fuck themself when it is about providing users data. I truly make no exceptions for that, it doesn't make me sympathetic if a user allegedly distributes child porn in a private conversation, or if he is a terrorist and disclosed a location of a nuclear bomb to his partner. I mean it. Because the exceptions where you could convince me it's necessary are very-very rare, and courts' ability to abuse it if there can be any exceptions at all is infinite. And it should be obvious that I don't trust any courts or government to do the right thing, and it truly scares me (but I accept it as a fact, because if all people would become enlightened it probably would truly mean total chaos) that so many people do.
But, of course, again, the only way to truly ensure that is non-backdoored E2EE, and it's not even clear if such a thing even exists...
mrtksn|1 year ago
Just lock up the people responsible for the problems, why would you deprive people from the products the use?
A future I want to live is a future where offenders get punished, not a future where I'm dissolved of using products that offenders used to offend.
skeledrew|1 year ago
diggan|1 year ago
So with that said, you're actually against the arrest of Pavel Durov as I understand it? As he's being arrested for not committing any crimes, but for not giving information about the people who are committing the actual crimes.
krick|1 year ago
I mean, I don't want it to sound simplistic. Situation is kinda novel (meaning, it wasn't possible 200 years ago). Basically every POV in this entire discussion makes sense to me. Like, it absolutely makes sense for a government to be hostile to somebody who doesn't comply with their requests, and given that in this situation that somebody happens to be a french citizen... well, it's almost like he was asking for it.
But regardless of what reasoning I could provide in behalf of the opposing side, my personal desire is that all governments and all courts to go fuck themself when it is about providing users data. I truly make no exceptions for that, it doesn't make me sympathetic if a user allegedly distributes child porn in a private conversation, or if he is a terrorist and disclosed a location of a nuclear bomb to his partner. I mean it. Because the exceptions where you could convince me it's necessary are very-very rare, and courts' ability to abuse it if there can be any exceptions at all is infinite. And it should be obvious that I don't trust any courts or government to do the right thing, and it truly scares me (but I accept it as a fact, because if all people would become enlightened it probably would truly mean total chaos) that so many people do.
But, of course, again, the only way to truly ensure that is non-backdoored E2EE, and it's not even clear if such a thing even exists...
ivan_gammel|1 year ago