Show HN: Ki Editor – Multicursor syntactical editor

[hou32hou]

Hi everyone, I have been developing this editor, Ki, for over a year, and have employed it substantially in all kinds of development (including Ki itself) for at least 3 months.

I think it is mostly crystallized, thus I'm happy to share it with you today.

Its main strength is first-class multi-cursor and structural (syntax) editing, which is a rare combination in the realm of editors (TUI or GUI alike).

Hope you'll enjoy it!

[ilyagr]

Fascinating idea!

To summarize for those who know [Kakoune](https://github.com/mawww/kakoune) or [Helix](https://github.com/helix-editor/helix), the idea is that every command has the form ["selection mode" -> "movement" -> "action"](https://ki-editor.github.io/ki-editor/comparisons/modal-edit...) instead of Kakoune's movement->action.

So, instead of having separate commands for "next character", "next word", "next structural element", there is one command for "next" (as well as [a few additional motions](https://ki-editor.github.io/ki-editor/normal-mode/core-movem...)). Every command starts with a ["selection mode"](https://ki-editor.github.io/ki-editor/normal-mode/selection-...) like "column", "line", or "structural element".

It's hard to know without some practice and experience how much I'd enjoy it, but it is a good idea, and perhaps it'd be easier for a newcomer to learn than Kakoune/Helix.

[boomskats]

Is this significantly better than the typical `nvim-treesitter-textobjects`[0] / `nvim-various-textobjs`[1] workflow?

[0]: https://github.com/nvim-treesitter/nvim-treesitter-textobjec... [0]: https://github.com/chrisgrieser/nvim-various-textobjs

[hou32hou]

To be frank it takes time to get used to, especially if you are already a Vim amateur.

However, once you get the hang of it you will find that most common operations can be achieved within 3 keypresses.

For example, to delete the current line, press `e` (Line selection mode) and then `d` (Delete).

To delete the current word, press `w` (Word selection mode) and then `d`.

To insert new text at the end of the current line, press `e`, then `a` (enter insert mode at the end of the selection).

To insert new text at the beginning of the current line, press `e`, then `i` (enter insert mode at the beginning of selection).

To go to the first line, press `e`, then `,` (Move to the first selection).

To go to the last line, press `e`, then `.` (Move to the last selection).

There are too many of such examples that I cannot fit in one comment, but I think you get the idea. It's all about creative combinations between selection modes and movements.

[Chris2048]

From a theory/implementation point of view, maybe this is relevant: https://groups.csail.mit.edu/graphics/lapis/doc/papers.html

[ilyagr]

Another editor that people might be interested in (and I think more people should know about) is https://github.com/martanne/vis. It is, in some ways, the opposite of Ki; instead of straying further from vim, Vis is just Vim + good multiple cursor support + sam-styled structural regexes (I didn't know what those are before using Vis, I consider it a detail of how the multiple cursor interface works).

Thus, Vis is easier to learn than Helix/Kakoune and gives you (IMO) the most useful feature of Helix/Kakoune.

Unfortunately, Vis is also a bit bare-bones, I don't think it has LSP support for instance.

[liamwigney]

Re. LSP support, there's this:

https://gitlab.com/muhq/vis-lspc

https://github.com/fischerling/vis-lspc

I've linked both because it seems like the github repo has a pull-request with a bunch of updates but the gitlab repo seems to be more up to date?

I've not tried getting it working yet, but I've seen people on Reddit (or lobste.rs, I don't remember) saying they got it working.

[cassepipe]

You know it's going to be a good day when there is a new modal editor in town. Thanks for sharing.

About the editor : I love what I see. I must admit that for me now the ultimate vim-fu I settled upon for navigating/editing is searching/replacing ( with something like traces.vim and `set incsearch on` so it feels nicer ) so this new paradigm makes a lot sense I believe.

[SoraNoTenshi]

Very nice project, i think the way you navigate is implemented spot on!

Although i have some questions / concerns: - "Command mode" (`:`) seems a bit more different compared to Helix / Kakoune and maybe even VIM. I would have also expected to be able to change the theme like so.

- I couldn't find (after just a bit of skimming around the docs) how to adjust the sizes of e.g. the file-tree. Or well, even change to a different window. I like the concept of having multiple windows within the browser, but couldn't really figure it out.

Also, layouts may be a neat idea to implement, so that e.g. the file browser will always spawn on the exact same location of a defined layout (may as well be pre-defined) - Theme browsing is a little bit slow i feel like, not big of a deal, just something i noticed.

- The docs may also need a way to change from selection based movement (e.g. via Token / ts node) back to character based.

- The gui may need some improvements, maybe it's just subjective perception, but having a small window with all the options there is good, but i couldn't intuitively tell whether or not those were all the options (e.g. in <SPC> mode). Also i am fairly certain there were more options.

- A builtin tutor is also a neat idea, considering that your editor looks very young, i am sure you thought of that, but it's a really easy way to get new users comfortable with using it.

Anyway, very neat project! I will keep an eye out and eventually try and daily it, at least for a week. The structured editing you implemented is REALLY GREAT, like better than i could have done it (or even thought about).

[hou32hou]

Thank you for trying!

For character-based movement, simply press 'z' to enter the column mode.

Regarding the built-in tutor, yes I really have to put in the effort, because it's so much harder than authoring documentation.

And yes, a lot more has to be improved, Ki needs a lot of polishing around the edges.

[ilyagr]

I wish this were a mode for https://github.com/71/dance or a plugin like it. Technically, this seems entirely possible, though I'm not sure anybody would have the time to actually implement it unless Ki's author wants to do it.

As is, Dance with Kakoune bindings is good enough and supports all of VS Code plugins, so I'm not sure I'll get enough use of Ki to actually get used to its bindings. Or maybe I'll play with it anyway...

P.S. I linked this in [Dance's forum](https://github.com/71/dance/discussions/347), perhaps it'll turn into an actual discussion.

[MaximilianEmel]

This looks really interesting. I will try it out sometime, but since there's no Windows builds (does it even support Windows?) that will wait a bit. I don't think it's good idea to have compile-time configuration (needing a toolchain to change config). What happened to MERC[1]? I suppose it was written for this editor?

[1] https://ki-editor.github.io/merc/

[hou32hou]

I will need help unfortunately because I don't have an accessible Windows machine.

For the configuration I'm planning something crazier, I might use my programming language that I built earlier (https://github.com/wongjiahau/kk).

[zakm]

I'm working on something similar (not as far along), a vscode extension that has ideas like functions, parameters, etc as first class ideas (so press f to select a function) and also does things like adding a newline and a space where appropriate during insert actions.

Here's a short video demo if anyone is interested: https://youtu.be/owuuFxDBQh4

[EddieLomax]

"Ki" also means "who" in Persian-Farsi ("کی"). Looks neat, just wanted to add some random related trivia.

[przmk]

"Qui" (pronounced ki) also means "who" in French. I wonder if they're related.

[cyptus]

KI means AI in German, I was already searching for some fancy GPT implementations

[no_time]

Oddly enough, same in Hungarian.

[SanjayMehta]

“Ki” means “what” in Punjabi.

[IshKebab]

This is so well presented. I love the demonstrations of real life editing tasks. Looks like it can actually do the kinds of complex editing tasks Vim users claim they can (but never provide realistic evidence for like this).

Case agnostic search and replace is such a nice feature too. I have no idea why it isn't standard in IDEs.

[rattray]

This looks awesome.

It was a bit hard to see on mobile - what are the hotkeys in the first demo to select the full function call?

[hou32hou]

Just `s` if your cursor is already placed on the first token of the function call node.

[danielvaughn]

Structured editors are so cool. I’ll give this a try at some point, because I really wanted to like Helix and others, but the actual UX felt too strange and difficult.

I’m building my own semi-structured editor but it’s specifically for UI design. Love seeing more examples for inspiration!

[createaccount99]

Would be cool if it was client-server architectured. If I can't open the editor in 2 terminals and edit the same file, that's a real blocker.

Good keybinds though, I like it a lot.

[evertedsphere]

cool demos, but i feel they would be easier to follow slowed down a touch

going to try this out: the idea of breaking motion -> action into something like topic -> adjective -> action has been kicking around in my head for a while

[yencabulator]

Aren't multiple cursors and structural selection kinda standard fare these days? Even VSCode has "Expand Selection".

[hou32hou]

Multi-cursor, yes; structural selection, not so much, they are more like an afterthought for most editors, there’s a big difference between being treated as first-class and second-class.

[dario_od]

It really needs a tutorial. I'd like to get a feel of how it works before having to study the documentation.

Aside from that congrats!

[unshavedyak]

Love the idea! I too am exploring structured editing, i hope to learn something from Ki :)

[ctenb]

How does this compare to Kakoune and Helix?

[hou32hou]

Ki is much inspired by Helix and Kakoune, however, it introduces an extra layer called the Selection Mode, with this, every movement is standardized to the same set of keybindings.

Also, most importantly, syntactical selection/navigation/modification is first class, although it is somehow supported in Helix, the default keybindings are not very accessible.

Another big difference from Helix is its internal architecture, most Helix components were rebuilt from scratch, while in Ki every components uses the core editor as the base, which means all components shares the same set of keybindings, you don't need to learn different set of keybindings for different components.

[kleiba]

As an old-timer, I don't quite understand why Emacs still is kind of a niche app after all these years even within dev circles. Most of the functionality that other editors offer is available in Emacs too, and when it isn't, then there are usually acceptable alternatives.

Over the years, I've heard many arguments against Emacs but found none of them convincing, especially if you take the point of view that learning a powerful tool can be an essential asset in any profession. Emacs certainly is such a tool.

The same question could be asked about vi(m), although that one at least received some hipster love in recent years. That seems to have cooled down somewhat too, though.

[keyle]

Any emacs set up as a 'modern IDE' with neat features runs like an absolute dog. It's only fast because it was written long ago.

[WillAdams]

The most productive programmer I know would launch Epsilon (a Windows version of emacs) at the beginning of his workday and never leave it (even to browse the web at lunchtime).

My problem has always been that I prefer to use styluses, and to hand-write things out at times and to use a stylus for editing/annotation and to have a graphical environment for displaying markup and so forth (which reminds me, I need to see how the new LyX 2.4 works w/ a stylus).

[unshavedyak]

As a long time Vim/Kakoune/Helix user, i've never really understood the difference tbh. Clearly i've never tried, but getting comfortable enough in a new editor, especially one that deviates so much from your norm, is quite the chore.

From the outside Emacs never drew me in. It didn't do anything "bad", but the premise behind vim (motion actions, etc) just sounded logical, like building blocks , and as a result drew me in for being easier to understand the basics of.

I could never grasp what Emacs even "was", as a pre-vim beginner. To this day i still don't know, but my general assumption is it's more built around commands rather than little primitives like Vim does. Which, seems fine - just never was enough to hook me.

These days i'm mulling on my own editor and i should probably better understand Emacs. I've watched some guides on Org Mode, which is a big area of focus for me, but even that just seems like Markdown with an LSP (link jumping/etc), so i still must be missing something heh.

[bloopernova]

A lot of people have been told that they don't need to learn "difficult" or "esoteric" tools. The same thinking is behind the use of npm modules for basic functions that programmers should be able to make themselves.

[v3ss0n]

because of it requirement in understanding lisp which is a niche programming language that doesn't go anywhere in real world environment just to configure a few things.