As the Cloudant Founder (YCS08) that opened the Seattle office, I really enjoy the diversity of this comment stream. I wrote this post because I thought it would provide some insight into our company, and because others may find it useful. We have been exceptionally busy building product, revenue and team. After fiddling with the prototype desk in my backyard, we ended up with something economical, fast, ergonomic and flexible. You may say we have a "scalable" desk design.
A bit more about the desks, to address some of the comments below. We can move the desks around easier than "L" shaped ikea frames and have tried multiple positions. I prefer to gaze at a brick wall for focus, others like to gaze out the window or into the room. The desks can be moved in the center of the room and "stacked" like a big lab bench for group hacking. They can also be assembled into mega "L" shaped desks if you need to, say, sort through 2 years of receipts. Getting the height right was a big challenge, and we didn't scrimp on chairs. We also have screws in the feet to adjust the height of the desks if needed. Laptop heat is a non-issue so far, and they don't require coasters.
Per the bigger picture, I'm glad to discuss/listen on the relative merits of team building, brand identity/pride, and balancing running a surprisingly large global data service if that's of interest. We did this for many reasons, but a major portion was to have some fun in the (exceptionally rare) off hours. I would say that building something mechanical and getting the chance to do manual labor is all too rare in my life, and something from which I derive deep satisfaction.
Also, I can't say this enough -- we got a huge assist from friends and family of Cloudant.
Kudos to you and the team for caring about the culture.
People tend to forget that the company culture - shared interests and activities being a big part of it - plays a huge part in shaping the quality of the product/service. In addition, it helps build a sense of identity and pride among employees, which is especially important for a fast growing company.
Taking some time off to work on a project like this might actually provide huge returns which are not immediately apparent.
Typically when I see door desks, the whole point is to be as cheap and as quick as possible (ie take a big, flat door and throw it on some cinder blocks or makeshift legs). In this case, it seems like those in charge of furnishing the office were more hung up on the novelty of a door desk than any possible cost savings, so they spent way too much time doing things like staining and varnishing, etc. when they could've just bought proper looking desks in the first place.
Meaning they decided to procrastinate instead of working on their product/service.
> we instead chose to purchase solid core doors from Home Depot (~$40 each)
Meaning they instead chose to spend more on something that wasn't designed to be a desk than an actual desk.
From [1]:
Ergonomically, door desks leave a lot to be desired. Keyboards were usually too high. Typing for hours could be uncomfortable. And those angle brackets have sharp edges; accidentally scrapping exposed flesh against those was a mistake that wouldn't be repeated.
> "Meaning they decided to procrastinate instead of working on their product/service."
If they were truly procrastinating, you've got a point. But that's hardly implicit in having spent time and energy on a desk. You can't work productively 24x7. You need downtime.
And those desks, not to minimize the effort they did put into them, don't look like a huge time investment to me.
As to the ergonomics, sure: ideally you want adjustable desk height and some way to get monitors to a comfortable height. But how often have you found those qualities in the sub-$40 desks you'd have them buy?
Setting up a good work environment is a worthwhile investment. When you're going to be working somewhere for 8+ hours a day for the foreseeable future, setting it up to maximize your productivity is not procrastination.
Actual desk tops are much more expensive, around 2x the price for an equivalent area: http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/categories/departments/wor... I'm not sure about the whole rounding the legs off thing, but if you're going to make 20 desks it's probably not that big a deal, and it does make the legs a lot nicer.
And it's interesting that you're ignoring the Aeron chairs - or are they worth spending money on?
Update: My bad, they're actually Progrid chairs from Costco, not Aerons.
I'm not sure if I'd be all that happy hacking away on a door desk. It's too rectangular and even with a good ergonomic chair I find my elbows aren't supported with my keyboard. I've worked on desks of similar size and shape and they just don't cut it.
I prefer a corner desk with a rounded, concave cutout. I can imagine with a bit of competitive pricing I could put one together for less than $100. I'd probably go with a birch or maple veneer plywood and stain it to the right color.
To be fair though, I'm a hobbyist woodworker and a lot of people don't have the inclination, patience, or skill to build a desk. There is also little point in DIY if what you can buy can be tax deducted as a business expense.
It says a lot about the work ethic of a company when they are willing to dedicate a weekend of their own time to build something with their own two hands. It shows that the team can problem solve together on many levels, has common sense, and that they enjoy working hard. As an outside member of this construction effort, I, the "fiancee LJ", appreciated being involved in the start-up process because it provided me a way to contribute and be part of the start-up spirit. Why should my fiancee get to have all the fun? In my opinion, the benefits of this project (team building, original furniture, bragging rights, significant money savings) far outweighed what would have been gained with the satisfaction of a trip to Ikea. Thanks Cloudant!
It's hard to see this as the YC way of running a business. The CEO can make desks from doors and his girlfriend can create a floor plan in sketchup, but neither scales. Establishing potentially ongoing relationships with a carpentry shop and with a team of design professionals does.
This is a kneepads v. packing table decision:
we were packing on our hands and knees on a hard concrete floor. I remember, just to show you how stupid I can be -- my only defense is that it was late. We were packing these things, everybody in the company and I had this brainstorm as I said to the person next to me, "This packing is killing me! My back hurts, this is killing my knees on this hard cement floor" and this person said, "Yeah, I know what you mean." And I said, "You know what we need?" my brilliant insight, "We need knee pads!'" I was very serious, and this person looked at me like I was the stupidest person they'd ever seen. I'm working for this person? This is great. "What we need is packing tables." -- Jeff Bezos
Well done! Wood is an amazing material. Don't not mind these comments about investing your time better. You did it right. A solid and comfortable environment is essential for a good product. Maybe good ideas were created at starbucks, but certainly not good products.
There's a team camaraderie benefit to building desks together, for sure, but if you just wanted desks you could get them on Craigslist for cheap. We got 3 extremely high quality desks for $100 total. (List price was $400 each).
I've always done the t leg ikea galant desks (glass, preferably), with aeron chairs ($300 used, $600 new, IMO worth it), and now, ergotron monitor arms. Generic but totally functional.
Ikea desks are not too expensive and will have a higher resell value than your door desks when your company goes under from spending too much time making desks.
If it's not too rude to ask, what is your rent? I'm seeing $4.50-7 in Palo Alto for a range of spaces (it gets cheaper for huge space out of downtown); $1-2.50 for light industrial or office space in Mountain View, and $1.50-4 in SF.
I'd far prefer to be in Seattle (and love Pioneer Square), but I think I'm stuck down here.
I like those brick walls. Bricks on my country are generally clearer and color doesn't vary that much. Do you know if that is some treatment on the bricks so they look old, or perhaps they are really old?
If I could choose so, I rather have my screens facing a wall, or even better the front door. I just don't like the feeling that people might be monitoring what I'm doing. Anyone else notices that?
[+] [-] mlmilleratmit|13 years ago|reply
A bit more about the desks, to address some of the comments below. We can move the desks around easier than "L" shaped ikea frames and have tried multiple positions. I prefer to gaze at a brick wall for focus, others like to gaze out the window or into the room. The desks can be moved in the center of the room and "stacked" like a big lab bench for group hacking. They can also be assembled into mega "L" shaped desks if you need to, say, sort through 2 years of receipts. Getting the height right was a big challenge, and we didn't scrimp on chairs. We also have screws in the feet to adjust the height of the desks if needed. Laptop heat is a non-issue so far, and they don't require coasters.
Per the bigger picture, I'm glad to discuss/listen on the relative merits of team building, brand identity/pride, and balancing running a surprisingly large global data service if that's of interest. We did this for many reasons, but a major portion was to have some fun in the (exceptionally rare) off hours. I would say that building something mechanical and getting the chance to do manual labor is all too rare in my life, and something from which I derive deep satisfaction.
Also, I can't say this enough -- we got a huge assist from friends and family of Cloudant.
[+] [-] xfax|13 years ago|reply
People tend to forget that the company culture - shared interests and activities being a big part of it - plays a huge part in shaping the quality of the product/service. In addition, it helps build a sense of identity and pride among employees, which is especially important for a fast growing company.
Taking some time off to work on a project like this might actually provide huge returns which are not immediately apparent.
[+] [-] supercanuck|13 years ago|reply
Imagine my surprise when I read the name LJ, and Mike, and Physics @ MIT .. and put two and two together.
-Long Time friend of your neighbors, C&J. :)
[+] [-] TwiztidK|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] _b8r0|13 years ago|reply
Meaning they decided to procrastinate instead of working on their product/service.
> we instead chose to purchase solid core doors from Home Depot (~$40 each)
Meaning they instead chose to spend more on something that wasn't designed to be a desk than an actual desk.
From [1]:
Ergonomically, door desks leave a lot to be desired. Keyboards were usually too high. Typing for hours could be uncomfortable. And those angle brackets have sharp edges; accidentally scrapping exposed flesh against those was a mistake that wouldn't be repeated.
[1] - http://glinden.blogspot.co.uk/2006/01/early-amazon-door-desk...
[+] [-] pg|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] roc|13 years ago|reply
If they were truly procrastinating, you've got a point. But that's hardly implicit in having spent time and energy on a desk. You can't work productively 24x7. You need downtime.
And those desks, not to minimize the effort they did put into them, don't look like a huge time investment to me.
As to the ergonomics, sure: ideally you want adjustable desk height and some way to get monitors to a comfortable height. But how often have you found those qualities in the sub-$40 desks you'd have them buy?
[+] [-] karamazov|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] calinet6|13 years ago|reply
Problem 1: no link to main Cloudant page from the blog post.
Problem 2: at least 2 broken links to their products at the bottom of the page: (Big Couch, Private Cloud both give 404s)
Slightly sloppy; not that big a deal. But people might see.
[+] [-] anthonyb|13 years ago|reply
And it's interesting that you're ignoring the Aeron chairs - or are they worth spending money on?
Update: My bad, they're actually Progrid chairs from Costco, not Aerons.
[+] [-] mlmilleratmit|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] namella|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] webjunkie|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] andrew_wc_brown|13 years ago|reply
Their at work, they're suppose to be working on their work not watching netflix.
I think its a nice setup. My only concern would be my laptop overheating on those wooden desks.
[+] [-] Zimahl|13 years ago|reply
I prefer a corner desk with a rounded, concave cutout. I can imagine with a bit of competitive pricing I could put one together for less than $100. I'd probably go with a birch or maple veneer plywood and stain it to the right color.
To be fair though, I'm a hobbyist woodworker and a lot of people don't have the inclination, patience, or skill to build a desk. There is also little point in DIY if what you can buy can be tax deducted as a business expense.
[+] [-] jaytaylor|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] soulcutter|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] laurajean|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] brudgers|13 years ago|reply
This is a kneepads v. packing table decision:
we were packing on our hands and knees on a hard concrete floor. I remember, just to show you how stupid I can be -- my only defense is that it was late. We were packing these things, everybody in the company and I had this brainstorm as I said to the person next to me, "This packing is killing me! My back hurts, this is killing my knees on this hard cement floor" and this person said, "Yeah, I know what you mean." And I said, "You know what we need?" my brilliant insight, "We need knee pads!'" I was very serious, and this person looked at me like I was the stupidest person they'd ever seen. I'm working for this person? This is great. "What we need is packing tables." -- Jeff Bezos
http://www.achievement.org/autodoc/page/bez0int-4
[+] [-] gyros23|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] namella|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] qq66|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rdl|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] swah|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dannyr|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] quellhorst|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] venturebros|13 years ago|reply
Anyways I am just happy to see something Seattle related.
[+] [-] xfax|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rdl|13 years ago|reply
I'd far prefer to be in Seattle (and love Pioneer Square), but I think I'm stuck down here.
[+] [-] Goladus|13 years ago|reply
There's a link to blog.cloudent.com but not cloudent.com, which is where I actually wanted to go.
[+] [-] swah|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mlmilleratmit|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] swah|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] overworkedasian|13 years ago|reply
if you add up all the time it took to sand, varish, cut, drill etc it would have costs so much more. time is money man.