> However, irrespective of whether one can afford (or is willing to pay for) a subscription, the key lesson from all this is that, if automakers have their way, the car ownership experience is going to change dramatically in the near future.
Yep, unless people stop buying cars that offer these features, it's just going to get worse and worse. But here's the thing: they won't.
I have a Mazda but simply don't use the paid wireless features. It works fine and is still an incredible value.
BTW I think they charge for this feature because it requires the car to be connected to the Internet for it work, as it receives the remote start command from the Internet (so it works if you are far from the car). The Internet connection is certainly not free for Mazda.
Companies love subscription based services. I have to assume it's becauce they're much more lucrative. But many times companies forget the other part: what value are they providing? Telling me I now have to subscribe to something I'm using to owning isn't going to work, or shouldn't work.
In theory they much better align expenses with revenue. If you need to maintain servers and pay for LTE plans in perpetuity to make this functionality work, then a subscription makes more sense than bundling it with the purchase price. People are just tired of paying for this kind of thing though, every aspect of human existence is being loaded into a subscription service.
The problem is it does work, a lot, and not enough people push back to hurt their sales, versus the number of people that just pay it, or weren't going to use the feature anyway.
Same thing with all the data collection and privacy violations of many other companies as of late. They keep doing it because it's not hurting their bottom line. I think tech people often forget that we are not their target audience.
It's basically free money. You get money from people who subscribe and nothing from people who don't.
Since so many companies are simultaneously doing this app-powered subscription based value extraction there is no competitive disadvantage to doing it.
How long are memories? Annoying a subset of your customers for 20 years in exchange for orders of magnitude more profit for the rest of time?
We're seeing it in housing right now - predatory institutional investors buying up stock while younger generations are increasingly coming to terms with the idea of renting for their entire lives.
I'll say as clearly as possible. I will go to extraordinary expense to avoid subscriptions in cars. If I have to spend 30k making an old car run and be road worthy, I'll do it solely out of spite. I can take this quite far: there is a lifetime Spotify ban in my entire household because the early Spotify client paused advertisements if you turned the volume off.
Problem is: How many people are like you? Not enough. We can't rely on a few individual principled actors to influence an entire industry where people's full time job is to oppose those principles. The free market is not going to solve this problem, unfortunately.
It was convenient that they wanted to update terms of service right as they were implementing this. I was able to just decline the terms, delete the app, and I think that lets me off the hook with them.
I'm much more invested in the notion that someone else can't remote start my car than that I can or can't, and my experience in the transportation industry is that security is pretty lousy.
I will miss the occasional reminder that I left the doors unlocked but mostly, nothing of value has been lost.
If I could get a car without such features I'd happily do it but it has to be a late model with warranty or I'm out, like most people.
Mazda basically records your life, so they know where you go, how fast you go, distracted driver information, and most likely sells your data. (I bet insurance companies love this data)
WE AUTOMATICALLY COLLECT CERTAIN DEFAULT DATA FROM THE CONNECTED VEHICLE ON AN ONGOING BASIS. ONLY WE CAN DEACTIVATE THE TCU AND DISABLE OUR COLLECTION OF ALL DEFAULT DATA. NOTE THAT THE SALE, TRANSFER, OR LEASE TERMINATION OF A CONNECTED VEHICLE WILL NOT DISABLE AUTOMATIC DEFAULT DATA COLLECTION.
“Default Data” includes the following:
“Driving Data”: driving behavior data, which includes the acceleration and speed at which your Connected Vehicle is driven and use of the steering and braking functions in your Connected Vehicle (Driving Data is collected for each driving trip and transmitted at each Ignition Off); and “Vehicle Health Data”: includes Vehicle Identification Number (VIN); odometer, fuel level, and oil life readings; Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTCs); and data from the Connected Vehicle’s OBD system (“OBD Data”). OBD Data includes, but is not limited to, engine coolant temperature, fuel injection volume, engine Rotation Per Minute (RPM), and the status of doors, hood, trunk, and hazard lights (Vehicle Health Data is transmitted at each Ignition-Off).
Driver Attention Alert (DAA)
This safety feature monitors the driver's awareness and learns their driving habits when the vehicle is driven above 40 miles per hour.
Driver Monitoring (DM)
This system detects driver fatigue and sleepiness by monitoring changes in the driver's facial features
Corporations have figured out how to exploit human psychology when it comes to subscriptions. Just as how people are willing to spend $99 on a product when they wouldn't have spent $100, they will gladly pay a $10/month subscription (with annual price increments) for 30 years straight rather than a $500 one-time fee.
I can't wait to read about renters not only having to pay their landlords rent, but also extra subscriptions for common amenities, like central heating, A/C, and even shower. The dream is a subscription for everything.
Sadly, I think if we started seeing landlords charging tenants a per-month shower fee or a per-use fee for the home's door, we'd have commenters on HN defending it.
Has Mazda made their remote start at all useful? My Mazda can only be started, I can't set the climate or control the seat or steering wheel heating. Some settings can be set before the car is turned off, if you remember, but some reset no matter what. And the few times I have tried remote start, it has stopped after a short while, as apparently the system requires continuous cellular connectivity to keep the engine running. So if the connection drops at all it shuts off the engine. And finally, if you do remote start, the engine shuts off as soon as you open the door, so you immediately have to start it again, which just seems bad for the engine.
What percentage of people use the app at all? And also interested to know how many people tried the app for a week or so, and then never again. There is no shortage of people over at /r/mazda, etc. recounting how they found the app so worthless, they tried it a couple of times, and then deleted the app.
Potentially unpopular take but I don't think free services linked to physical goods are a good idea in practice. Maintaining such services costs money forever, companies can't sustain that as a business model, so the market is littered with hardware that is now useless because the services it required has gone offline. If there's something to gripe about here it's that Mazda removed the fob-based remote start, or that $10/month is too high, but it should not be that they're charging a maintenance fee for something they have to maintain.
I'd love if there were a bring-your-own option. A usb-a port you can plug in your kwn always on cellular controller to.
It's unfortunate as hell for car companies that they need to become maintainers of Internet of Cars infrastructure that needs to stay running, that brings legal obligation & maintenance. It's be better for consumers if there were free market options, and it's save so much pain and development costs if car companies could get out of having to DIY all these IoT offerings.
If you are considering responding negatively in these comments, and also work on or for a SaaS business (or any kind of aaS), I would like to hear your reasoning
But the argument would go for a SaaS, you're paying for (1) potentially upgrades and support, and (2) the ease-of-mind to off-load self hosting to someone else. So yes I agree, only SaaS business people who offer customers a buy-to-own option (open-source their SaaS suites with a push-button to deploy and host on AWS) should be able to comment on thread!
I don't, but SaaS is very clearly "we provide this product, you pay for it". The business model revolves around access to some useful improvement.
Here, Mazda have removed a traditionally zero-dollar standard inclusion which incurs no ongoing cost (keyfob start) and replaced it with a paid option (smartphone start).
I would like to know when people will realize again the power of being united: a vendor start to screw it's customers? Few hours and all socials invite to boycott it. All intentions to order, reserved test drives etc got deleted "sorry, we hear the news, due to the vendor behavior we are not anymore interested not only in this specific car but in the brand altogether".
People are tired and only have so much energy. I can keep tilting at windmills about the loss of the headphone jack, but the public response is a big meh. Companies will incrementally capitalize on tiny inconveniences for any potential profit.
Replacing a local option which worked forever with a subscription locked alternative is a no-go for me.
As long as aftermarket solutions exist, I will opt for those every time. Aftermarket systems being locked out due to DRM is a natural consequence of the DMCA and everyone should write their congressperson about it. People did not appreciate at the time the far-reaching implications.
For those saying "people need to stop buying cars that have locked subscription features" -- soon it may be very hard to do so. The industry has been allowed to consolidate so much, and our antitrust enforcement so lax, that the market is tightening in favor of a few players.
Some of these make sense though, considering the car needs an LTE modem and data connection in order to make these things work. That isn't free to the car company.
Do not ever buy a car from a company who locks features behind a subscription.
I assure you, your vote matters and they will listen. This community has the power to change the future. Hell, The product managers considering it are probably members. Here’s how we do it. Do. Not. Buy. That’s it. And we change the path of the future. Away from the shit life where everything is a subscription all the time towards the one where you own things after you buy them.
For as many problems as my Tesla has given me at least the phone app acting as a key and all the wireless features are included. Only 2 digital upsells were FSD and data for apps like apple music and live traffic, but normal maps without live traffic are all just free.
Still don't see anything better than Mazda to buy, if you look at the "general modern car bullshit" bingo card including but not limited to: not enough real buttons, cybersecurity blunders (https://samcurry.net/web-hackers-vs-the-auto-industry) or ridiculous corner cutting.
The MX-5 ND especially has no serious competition at its price, as a true sports car (manual gearbox, truly light weight, independent suspension, not FF layout, "fun" engine) with high build quality. The Yaris GR could have been it, but Euro eco taxes killed it for my wallet (and the US doesn't want small cars).
As some in the comments correctly point out, this service requires a cellular connection. Which involves costs for Mazda. It's appropriate for them to charge a small monthly fee for the service. My only real complaint about this is discontinuing the keyfob-based feature. All that said, I see no need for remote start, anyway.
[+] [-] karaterobot|1 year ago|reply
Yep, unless people stop buying cars that offer these features, it's just going to get worse and worse. But here's the thing: they won't.
[+] [-] glimshe|1 year ago|reply
BTW I think they charge for this feature because it requires the car to be connected to the Internet for it work, as it receives the remote start command from the Internet (so it works if you are far from the car). The Internet connection is certainly not free for Mazda.
[+] [-] Justsignedup|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] more_corn|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] chrsw|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] mikeyouse|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] stranded22|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] ranger_danger|1 year ago|reply
Same thing with all the data collection and privacy violations of many other companies as of late. They keep doing it because it's not hurting their bottom line. I think tech people often forget that we are not their target audience.
[+] [-] wvenable|1 year ago|reply
Since so many companies are simultaneously doing this app-powered subscription based value extraction there is no competitive disadvantage to doing it.
[+] [-] Arainach|1 year ago|reply
We're seeing it in housing right now - predatory institutional investors buying up stock while younger generations are increasingly coming to terms with the idea of renting for their entire lives.
[+] [-] quantum_state|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] everdrive|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] ryandrake|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] tehlike|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] EasyMark|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] itsrobreally|1 year ago|reply
I'm much more invested in the notion that someone else can't remote start my car than that I can or can't, and my experience in the transportation industry is that security is pretty lousy.
I will miss the occasional reminder that I left the doors unlocked but mostly, nothing of value has been lost.
If I could get a car without such features I'd happily do it but it has to be a late model with warranty or I'm out, like most people.
[+] [-] IronWolve|1 year ago|reply
WE AUTOMATICALLY COLLECT CERTAIN DEFAULT DATA FROM THE CONNECTED VEHICLE ON AN ONGOING BASIS. ONLY WE CAN DEACTIVATE THE TCU AND DISABLE OUR COLLECTION OF ALL DEFAULT DATA. NOTE THAT THE SALE, TRANSFER, OR LEASE TERMINATION OF A CONNECTED VEHICLE WILL NOT DISABLE AUTOMATIC DEFAULT DATA COLLECTION.
“Default Data” includes the following:
“Driving Data”: driving behavior data, which includes the acceleration and speed at which your Connected Vehicle is driven and use of the steering and braking functions in your Connected Vehicle (Driving Data is collected for each driving trip and transmitted at each Ignition Off); and “Vehicle Health Data”: includes Vehicle Identification Number (VIN); odometer, fuel level, and oil life readings; Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTCs); and data from the Connected Vehicle’s OBD system (“OBD Data”). OBD Data includes, but is not limited to, engine coolant temperature, fuel injection volume, engine Rotation Per Minute (RPM), and the status of doors, hood, trunk, and hazard lights (Vehicle Health Data is transmitted at each Ignition-Off).
Driver Attention Alert (DAA) This safety feature monitors the driver's awareness and learns their driving habits when the vehicle is driven above 40 miles per hour.
Driver Monitoring (DM) This system detects driver fatigue and sleepiness by monitoring changes in the driver's facial features
[+] [-] paxys|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] lemoncookiechip|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] ryandrake|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] yarg|1 year ago|reply
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/7444685-the-door-refused-to...
[+] [-] kmeisthax|1 year ago|reply
(Disclaimer: I haven't read it yet.)
[+] [-] superb_dev|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] Analemma_|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] Sebguer|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] jshier|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] floxy|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] Clamchop|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] femto113|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] jauntywundrkind|1 year ago|reply
It's unfortunate as hell for car companies that they need to become maintainers of Internet of Cars infrastructure that needs to stay running, that brings legal obligation & maintenance. It's be better for consumers if there were free market options, and it's save so much pain and development costs if car companies could get out of having to DIY all these IoT offerings.
[+] [-] simonjgreen|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] noname123|1 year ago|reply
But the argument would go for a SaaS, you're paying for (1) potentially upgrades and support, and (2) the ease-of-mind to off-load self hosting to someone else. So yes I agree, only SaaS business people who offer customers a buy-to-own option (open-source their SaaS suites with a push-button to deploy and host on AWS) should be able to comment on thread!
[+] [-] suprjami|1 year ago|reply
Here, Mazda have removed a traditionally zero-dollar standard inclusion which incurs no ongoing cost (keyfob start) and replaced it with a paid option (smartphone start).
These aren't the same thing.
[+] [-] kkfx|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] DCH3416|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] 0cf8612b2e1e|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] RajT88|1 year ago|reply
As long as aftermarket solutions exist, I will opt for those every time. Aftermarket systems being locked out due to DRM is a natural consequence of the DMCA and everyone should write their congressperson about it. People did not appreciate at the time the far-reaching implications.
[+] [-] purplezooey|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] whalesalad|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] more_corn|1 year ago|reply
I assure you, your vote matters and they will listen. This community has the power to change the future. Hell, The product managers considering it are probably members. Here’s how we do it. Do. Not. Buy. That’s it. And we change the path of the future. Away from the shit life where everything is a subscription all the time towards the one where you own things after you buy them.
[+] [-] cut3|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] thesuperbigfrog|1 year ago|reply
When are cars going to be jailbroken?
Will there be FLOSS-powered cars?
How does "right to repair" come into play?
Food for thought:
https://craphound.com/news/2016/11/23/car-wars-a-dystopian-s...
[+] [-] BoingBoomTschak|1 year ago|reply
The MX-5 ND especially has no serious competition at its price, as a true sports car (manual gearbox, truly light weight, independent suspension, not FF layout, "fun" engine) with high build quality. The Yaris GR could have been it, but Euro eco taxes killed it for my wallet (and the US doesn't want small cars).
[+] [-] samdunham|1 year ago|reply