When this story first emerged, I was somewhat sympathetic to Matt/Automattic. But geeze, he is just looking worse and worse. Between this tantrum and threatening a former employee over a very innocuous statement [1], his credibility is pretty low in my opinion.
Kellie's article is a well-written and reasonable response to mean-spirited bullying. It makes me wonder why a lot of people think it's good to have Silicon Valley companies run by trolls. Is that really the way to build successful businesses?
> "Neal has been adverse to Quinn Emanuel a number of times, and won every case."
I don't think I have ever before seen, in an official public statement, a "The lawyer we just hired always beats the lawyer they just hired!" boast, and it seems ridiculous - it's almost even hinting in the direction that they think the case should be decided on quality of lawyer rather than that their case should win on merit.
Selecting a lawyer with a proven record, and expressing confidence in them are not "hinting in the direction that they think the case should be decided on quality of lawyer". They're smart strategies, whether you decide to take the case to court, or seek a settlement (on either side).
The audience for this statement is WP Engine's significant customers. WordPress is in a position to do much more damage to WP Engine in the near term, which will reflect poorly on the IT manager for selecting them as a vendor. WordPress is not so subtly encouraging those customers to reconsider their decision and migrate off WP Engine.
If WP Engine decides to fork, it devalues the "just like WordPress but better" value proposition and increases operating expenses as they can no longer inherit improvements from WordPress. A fork may mean they don't hit the growth targets they promised Silver Lake. Selecting this attorney is putting down a marker that WordPress wants a verdict, not a settlement.
The other wild card potentially more damaging to WP Engine and Silver Lake is the discovery process inherent in any lawsuit.
I am not a lawyer, but I don't think most commenters are correctly decoding the relative bargaining power of the two sides.
From our earliest days, our highest priority has always been our customers. WP Engine can hardly say the same.
Yes, that's why WordPress silently and secretly licensed back the WordPress trademarks to Matt's for-profit company without telling anybody. For the good of the customers.
That's why they forced the new boondoggle editing UI that everyone hates. For the good of the customers.
That's why the WordPress code is still spaghetti more than 15 years after it was originally launched. For the good of the customers.
Matt also seems very proud of his new, shady lawyer, who failed to disclose that he had cases before the Supreme Court when he endorsed Gorsuch and Kavanaugh for open spots. Gorsuch and Kavanaugh have since reciprocated by ruling for this guy's clients every time, in several cases with decisions that confounded even conservative legal experts. So, it would seem Matt found a dirty lawyer to represent his dirty case. (EDIT: Katyal is the lawyer who suggested corporations should be immune from anti-trafficking laws because it would be bad for business and got his endorsee pals to bless corporate wage theft. He's the kind of lawyer companies turn to when they want to get away with something truly evil.)
We vehemently deny WP Engine’s allegations—which are gross mischaracterizations of reality
Based on Matt's gross misrepresentations of reality on yesterday's thread, the only party to this case making gross mischaracterizations of reality is Matt.
If WordPress were truly an independent, community-led organization like Matt claims, he would have been forced out by now for the harm he's inflicted upon it.
> Yes, that's why WordPress silently and secretly licensed back the WordPress trademarks to Matt's for-profit company without telling anybody. For the good of the customers.
On the very same day Matt released a press release patting himself on the back for doing so, and how deeply devoted to the community he was. Indeed the press release specifically talked about how this ensured WordPress would never be unduly influenced by for-profit companies!
> That's why the WordPress code is still spaghetti more than 15 years after it was originally launched. For the good of the customers.
Thats actually true. Backward compatibility was and still is the #1 thing in WP, and its why it won over the web: No small business or individual customer cares about 'better code' in the backend if those 'improvements' break their websites. This was what a lot of wordpress competitors did in the past and they suffered for it.
In what world was anyone in the Senate unaware that Neal Katyal, the _former acting U.S. Solicitor General_, was suing the Trump administration over its travel ban on behalf of _the entire state of Hawaii_?
Furthermore, while I just don’t care about this WordPress case and I hate Gorsuch with the fires of a thousand burning suns, but I cannot stand people arguing in bad faith, no less than *The Washington Post* let the whole world know before Katyal introduced Gorsuch that this was the case. [0]
The legal victory is almost moot, even if Automattic is found to have acted in their rights. How does any Wordpress developer know they are not going to be next? Or all of the third party plugin providers? Or theme makers? All of them heavily use Wordpress branding in their services, few contribute to the open source.
The precedent being set here is wild, and every Wordpress organization becoming a Mullenweg personal mouthpiece account defending him personally is just so, so, bad.
This is one of the the most needless self-destructive acts I have ever seen in the world of business.
> How does any Wordpress developer know they are not going to be next? Or all of the third party plugin providers? Or theme makers? All of them heavily use Wordpress branding in their services, few contribute to the open source.
WP Engine should consider challenging the Wordpress Foundation's 501(c)(3) status by filing a complaint with the IRS. IANAL but I have run nonprofits, and they must be very careful about how it interacts with a for profit entity, especially when they share staff.
That seems like it would be terrible for the open source project and anyone that relies on it. I hope both sides of this dispute deescalate things before something like that happens.
This is getting embarrassing. I was a big fan of Matt's before this whole charade started but he's basically flushing 20 years of goodwill down the drain for not a whole lot in return. As best as I can tell this is all over a trademark dispute over the "WP" in WPEngine (and a hand-forcing by Automattic to implement a retroactive licensing agreement)?
As I understand it the claimed trademark infringement is WPE saying they ‘provide WordPress hosting’. If they are successful can anyone built an opens source hosting business?
> As best as I can tell this is all over a trademark dispute over the "WP" in WPEngine (and a hand-forcing by Automattic to implement a retroactive licensing agreement)?
Not just a retroactive agreement, a retroactive rewriting of trademark usage. Up until a few days into this dispute, the appropriate text on WordPress's site explicitly permitted people to use "WP" as they saw fit (as much as they can, as I don't believe they have a trademark on WP, just WordPress). Matt hastily edited things to imply WPEngine was in violation.
>As best as I can tell this is all over a trademark dispute over the "WP" in WPEngine
I'm only slightly following the dispute between Automattic and WPEngine but it might have more to do with WPEngine rewriting the payment identifier on Automattic's open source Woo Commerce ecommerce plugin.
WPEngine's payment identifier rewrite results in WPEngine getting a cut of ecommerce payments processed through their hosted sites and not Automattic.
I don't know the details though and probably didn't even explain it right. Matt talked about it recently in a Youtube interview.
Last night, WP Engine filed a baseless lawsuit against Automattic and Matt Mullenweg. Their complaint is flawed, start to finish. We vehemently deny WP Engine’s allegations—which are gross mischaracterizations of reality—and reserve all of our rights. Automattic is confident in our legal position, and will vigorously litigate against this absurd filing, as well as pursue all remedies against WP Engine. Automattic has retained Neal Katyal, former Acting Solicitor General of the United States, and his firm Hogan Lovells, LLP, to represent us. Mr. Katyal stated, “I stayed up last night reading WP Engine’s Complaint, trying to find any merit anywhere to it. The whole thing is meritless, and we look forward to the federal court’s consideration of their lawsuit.”
Our focus is and has always been protecting the integrity of WordPress and our mission to democratize publishing. From our earliest days, our highest priority has always been our customers. WP Engine can hardly say the same.
> Neal has been adverse to Quinn Emanuel a number of times, and won every case.
My perception: the personal grievance comes through loud and clear. Hopefully cases are decided more on their merits and less on the identities of the attorneys prosecuting them.
Regardless of which side you're on, so far the one thing that seems clear here is that the lawyers are going to be the real winners here.
When that is happening between two companies I generally don't care about it that much, but I hope open source doesn't turn out to be collateral damage here.
Exactly my thinking as well. All this bickering managed to do is convince me to setup my blog on Ghost instead of anything WP-related.
Both parties seemingly suck, and I wish them both the worst. In the meantime, this is a great excuse to promote WP-alternatives and improve upon them just in case this whole thing goes completely pear-shaped.
Like many here I suspect I care less about who wins the litigation than about the third parties - businesses, individuals and at least one major charity - who will have been affected by Matt’s and Automattic’s actions.
Where is the blog post about the affect this has had on them?
This feels like a classic "you either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain". It appears the more Matt talks, the more he tarnishes the reputation Wordpress has.
Nobody seems to have noticed that Matt Mullenweg stopped responding to everyone everywhere (including HN) after they hired the external law firm. They likely told him to shut up.
I get it that there are probably a lot of people here to depend on Wordpress for their work or personal blog or whatever but ... do we really need daily updates and discussion on this spat between two companies?
I've probably answered my own question already because evidently a lot of people here find this kind of schoolyard scrap intriguing ... I just wonder ... why. I guess the answer is to just upvote everything else on the front page.
Where is it documented Automattic (or Mr Mullenweg) owns any of WP Engine?
(ETA: Not saying it's impossible he or they have an interest -- I've just never seen this suggested. WP Engine is in many ways a competitor to wordpress.com, so it would be unusual, I think. And he/they have long not been a fan of WP Engine.)
As far as I can figure, from watching Matt's recent interviews and my own conjecture...
Matt's seen his open source creation go, over the course of 20 years, from a hobbyist product to now one with a multitude of companies creating billions of revenue from it.
But as it's grown certain companies are now huge and flush with VC cash. Which does change the equation. In the early days it might be reasonable to turn a blind eye to trademark infringement when it helps all boats rise, but now things are very imbalanced.
IMHO WPEngine is rent-extracting in the same way that AWS does with many open-source solutions. Customers want products not source-code and are prepared to pay for packaged value-added products compatible with Wordpress.
But none of this revenue is going back to the developers and fostering the development ecosystem in any meaningful way.
If opensource projects like Redis & Elasticsearch could have had developers hired from 8% of revenues from those AWS sales imagine how much better off those projects could have been.
As Wordpress itself is open-source Matt doesn't have any levers except the name Wordpress. As anybody in open-source should know - the code might well be open for forking but the name is very protected. Just because the trademark hasn't been entirely well enforced doesn't mean the protection is lost - the right always belongs to the trademark holder to use and enforce how they please as unilaterally as they wish. Trademarks can lose their protection if they start referring to generics but that's not the case here. Wordpress doesn't mean generic CMS - it's always referring to a Wordpress source code hosted by various companies.
Matt's clearly acting emotionally and not terribly logically - that's clear for everyone to see. But I do think its with the long term intention of making a more sustainable community.
Ultimately WPEngine can just rename their company and the only lever Matt has over them goes away.
Or they can embrace the name and pay a fair licensing cost - a rate significantly lower than if they were licensing some other commercial CRM software.
> IMHO WPEngine is rent-extracting in the same way that AWS does with many open-source solutions. Customers want products not source-code and are prepared to pay for packaged value-added products compatible with Wordpress. But none of this revenue is going back to the developers and fostering the development ecosystem in any meaningful way. If opensource projects like Redis & Elasticsearch could have had developers hired from 8% of revenues from those AWS sales imagine how much better off those projects could have been.
WP Engine also acquired, and continues to maintain, projects like Advanced Custom Fields [1] and Local [2].
Local used to have pro features, which became free for everyone after the acquisition [3].
Eh, my day-to-day lawyer and the firm I'd hire if a big company sued me and my company are different. If I were in Matt's position I'd have probably taken everything to a single firm that could handle all conceivable work, but it's not uncommon to do otherwise.
The first lawyer he refers to may be actually Automattic corporate counsel, too, and you'd definitely want an outside firm on this suit.
Though any lawyer should have told him to shut up.
Medium term WordPress itself and the participants in its ecosystem are going to be the losers here.
As a normal WordPress user who is a current client of Automattic AND WP Engine (for different sites), I’m simply far less likely to use WordPress at all for anything new. Why would I at this point? Why would anyone?
> Last night, WP Engine filed a baseless lawsuit against Automattic and Matt Mullenweg. Their complaint is flawed, start to finish. We vehemently deny WP Engine’s allegations—which are gross mischaracterizations of reality—and reserve all of our rights. Automattic is confident in our legal position, and will vigorously litigate against this absurd filing, as well as pursue all remedies against WP Engine. Automattic has retained Neal Katyal, former Acting Solicitor General of the United States, and his firm Hogan Lovells, LLP, to represent us. Mr. Katyal stated, “I stayed up last night reading WP Engine’s Complaint, trying to find any merit anywhere to it. The whole thing is meritless, and we look forward to the federal court’s consideration of their lawsuit.”
> Our focus is and has always been protecting >the integrity of WordPress and our mission to democratize publishing. From our earliest days, our highest priority has always been our customers. WP Engine can hardly say the same.
next_xibalba|1 year ago
[1] https://medium.com/@kelliepeterson/nice-guy-matt-mullenweg-c...
legitster|1 year ago
hodgesrm|1 year ago
Edit: added missing word "companies"
mvdtnz|1 year ago
jarule|1 year ago
[deleted]
swores|1 year ago
I don't think I have ever before seen, in an official public statement, a "The lawyer we just hired always beats the lawyer they just hired!" boast, and it seems ridiculous - it's almost even hinting in the direction that they think the case should be decided on quality of lawyer rather than that their case should win on merit.
nickff|1 year ago
skmurphy|1 year ago
If WP Engine decides to fork, it devalues the "just like WordPress but better" value proposition and increases operating expenses as they can no longer inherit improvements from WordPress. A fork may mean they don't hit the growth targets they promised Silver Lake. Selecting this attorney is putting down a marker that WordPress wants a verdict, not a settlement.
The other wild card potentially more damaging to WP Engine and Silver Lake is the discovery process inherent in any lawsuit.
I am not a lawyer, but I don't think most commenters are correctly decoding the relative bargaining power of the two sides.
sourraspberry|1 year ago
unknown|1 year ago
[deleted]
unknown|1 year ago
[deleted]
gamblor956|1 year ago
Yes, that's why WordPress silently and secretly licensed back the WordPress trademarks to Matt's for-profit company without telling anybody. For the good of the customers.
That's why they forced the new boondoggle editing UI that everyone hates. For the good of the customers.
That's why the WordPress code is still spaghetti more than 15 years after it was originally launched. For the good of the customers.
Matt also seems very proud of his new, shady lawyer, who failed to disclose that he had cases before the Supreme Court when he endorsed Gorsuch and Kavanaugh for open spots. Gorsuch and Kavanaugh have since reciprocated by ruling for this guy's clients every time, in several cases with decisions that confounded even conservative legal experts. So, it would seem Matt found a dirty lawyer to represent his dirty case. (EDIT: Katyal is the lawyer who suggested corporations should be immune from anti-trafficking laws because it would be bad for business and got his endorsee pals to bless corporate wage theft. He's the kind of lawyer companies turn to when they want to get away with something truly evil.)
We vehemently deny WP Engine’s allegations—which are gross mischaracterizations of reality
Based on Matt's gross misrepresentations of reality on yesterday's thread, the only party to this case making gross mischaracterizations of reality is Matt.
If WordPress were truly an independent, community-led organization like Matt claims, he would have been forced out by now for the harm he's inflicted upon it.
FireBeyond|1 year ago
On the very same day Matt released a press release patting himself on the back for doing so, and how deeply devoted to the community he was. Indeed the press release specifically talked about how this ensured WordPress would never be unduly influenced by for-profit companies!
dumbledoren|1 year ago
Thats actually true. Backward compatibility was and still is the #1 thing in WP, and its why it won over the web: No small business or individual customer cares about 'better code' in the backend if those 'improvements' break their websites. This was what a lot of wordpress competitors did in the past and they suffered for it.
blackqueeriroh|1 year ago
In what world was anyone in the Senate unaware that Neal Katyal, the _former acting U.S. Solicitor General_, was suing the Trump administration over its travel ban on behalf of _the entire state of Hawaii_?
Furthermore, while I just don’t care about this WordPress case and I hate Gorsuch with the fires of a thousand burning suns, but I cannot stand people arguing in bad faith, no less than *The Washington Post* let the whole world know before Katyal introduced Gorsuch that this was the case. [0]
[0] https://wapo.st/3XZhy2u
legitster|1 year ago
The precedent being set here is wild, and every Wordpress organization becoming a Mullenweg personal mouthpiece account defending him personally is just so, so, bad.
This is one of the the most needless self-destructive acts I have ever seen in the world of business.
davesmylie|1 year ago
bdzr|1 year ago
Easy, just don't be too successful.
Molitor5901|1 year ago
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-tege/How%20to%20Lose%20Your%20Ta...
ydlr|1 year ago
yawnxyz|1 year ago
So much of Automattic's corpospeak drips with spite. Makes me understand why other companies are so "bland" — to protect themselves
legitster|1 year ago
Does he actually believe this? WP Engine makes some very popular and well-liked products.
aimazon|1 year ago
rglover|1 year ago
klelatti|1 year ago
FireBeyond|1 year ago
Not just a retroactive agreement, a retroactive rewriting of trademark usage. Up until a few days into this dispute, the appropriate text on WordPress's site explicitly permitted people to use "WP" as they saw fit (as much as they can, as I don't believe they have a trademark on WP, just WordPress). Matt hastily edited things to imply WPEngine was in violation.
m348e912|1 year ago
I'm only slightly following the dispute between Automattic and WPEngine but it might have more to do with WPEngine rewriting the payment identifier on Automattic's open source Woo Commerce ecommerce plugin.
WPEngine's payment identifier rewrite results in WPEngine getting a cut of ecommerce payments processed through their hosted sites and not Automattic.
I don't know the details though and probably didn't even explain it right. Matt talked about it recently in a Youtube interview.
woah|1 year ago
Last night, WP Engine filed a baseless lawsuit against Automattic and Matt Mullenweg. Their complaint is flawed, start to finish. We vehemently deny WP Engine’s allegations—which are gross mischaracterizations of reality—and reserve all of our rights. Automattic is confident in our legal position, and will vigorously litigate against this absurd filing, as well as pursue all remedies against WP Engine. Automattic has retained Neal Katyal, former Acting Solicitor General of the United States, and his firm Hogan Lovells, LLP, to represent us. Mr. Katyal stated, “I stayed up last night reading WP Engine’s Complaint, trying to find any merit anywhere to it. The whole thing is meritless, and we look forward to the federal court’s consideration of their lawsuit.”
Our focus is and has always been protecting the integrity of WordPress and our mission to democratize publishing. From our earliest days, our highest priority has always been our customers. WP Engine can hardly say the same.
itsdrewmiller|1 year ago
x0x0|1 year ago
> Neal has been adverse to Quinn Emanuel a number of times, and won every case.
My perception: the personal grievance comes through loud and clear. Hopefully cases are decided more on their merits and less on the identities of the attorneys prosecuting them.
trog|1 year ago
When that is happening between two companies I generally don't care about it that much, but I hope open source doesn't turn out to be collateral damage here.
stego-tech|1 year ago
Both parties seemingly suck, and I wish them both the worst. In the meantime, this is a great excuse to promote WP-alternatives and improve upon them just in case this whole thing goes completely pear-shaped.
klelatti|1 year ago
Where is the blog post about the affect this has had on them?
FlamingMoe|1 year ago
elAhmo|1 year ago
dumbledoren|1 year ago
unknown|1 year ago
[deleted]
slenk|1 year ago
unknown|1 year ago
[deleted]
0cf8612b2e1e|1 year ago
n3storm|1 year ago
layer8|1 year ago
stefanos82|1 year ago
nineteen999|1 year ago
I've probably answered my own question already because evidently a lot of people here find this kind of schoolyard scrap intriguing ... I just wonder ... why. I guess the answer is to just upvote everything else on the front page.
handfuloflight|1 year ago
throwgfgfd25|1 year ago
(ETA: Not saying it's impossible he or they have an interest -- I've just never seen this suggested. WP Engine is in many ways a competitor to wordpress.com, so it would be unusual, I think. And he/they have long not been a fan of WP Engine.)
everfrustrated|1 year ago
As far as I can figure, from watching Matt's recent interviews and my own conjecture...
Matt's seen his open source creation go, over the course of 20 years, from a hobbyist product to now one with a multitude of companies creating billions of revenue from it.
But as it's grown certain companies are now huge and flush with VC cash. Which does change the equation. In the early days it might be reasonable to turn a blind eye to trademark infringement when it helps all boats rise, but now things are very imbalanced.
IMHO WPEngine is rent-extracting in the same way that AWS does with many open-source solutions. Customers want products not source-code and are prepared to pay for packaged value-added products compatible with Wordpress. But none of this revenue is going back to the developers and fostering the development ecosystem in any meaningful way. If opensource projects like Redis & Elasticsearch could have had developers hired from 8% of revenues from those AWS sales imagine how much better off those projects could have been.
As Wordpress itself is open-source Matt doesn't have any levers except the name Wordpress. As anybody in open-source should know - the code might well be open for forking but the name is very protected. Just because the trademark hasn't been entirely well enforced doesn't mean the protection is lost - the right always belongs to the trademark holder to use and enforce how they please as unilaterally as they wish. Trademarks can lose their protection if they start referring to generics but that's not the case here. Wordpress doesn't mean generic CMS - it's always referring to a Wordpress source code hosted by various companies.
Matt's clearly acting emotionally and not terribly logically - that's clear for everyone to see. But I do think its with the long term intention of making a more sustainable community.
Ultimately WPEngine can just rename their company and the only lever Matt has over them goes away.
Or they can embrace the name and pay a fair licensing cost - a rate significantly lower than if they were licensing some other commercial CRM software.
ValentineC|1 year ago
WP Engine also acquired, and continues to maintain, projects like Advanced Custom Fields [1] and Local [2].
Local used to have pro features, which became free for everyone after the acquisition [3].
[1] https://www.advancedcustomfields.com/blog/reflecting-on-two-...
[2] https://wpengine.com/blog/better-together-wp-engine-and-flyw...
[3] https://localwp.com/pro-for-everyone/
rodgerd|1 year ago
Today: "We have hired a lawyer."
Matticus_Rex|1 year ago
The first lawyer he refers to may be actually Automattic corporate counsel, too, and you'd definitely want an outside firm on this suit.
Though any lawyer should have told him to shut up.
throwgfgfd25|1 year ago
annoyed_eng|1 year ago
As a normal WordPress user who is a current client of Automattic AND WP Engine (for different sites), I’m simply far less likely to use WordPress at all for anything new. Why would I at this point? Why would anyone?
unknown|1 year ago
[deleted]
jdubz79|1 year ago
Shitty performance, shitty themes, borderline malware plugins……
claudiulodro|1 year ago
blackqueeriroh|1 year ago
nickthegreek|1 year ago
[deleted]
notatoad|1 year ago
> Last night, WP Engine filed a baseless lawsuit against Automattic and Matt Mullenweg. Their complaint is flawed, start to finish. We vehemently deny WP Engine’s allegations—which are gross mischaracterizations of reality—and reserve all of our rights. Automattic is confident in our legal position, and will vigorously litigate against this absurd filing, as well as pursue all remedies against WP Engine. Automattic has retained Neal Katyal, former Acting Solicitor General of the United States, and his firm Hogan Lovells, LLP, to represent us. Mr. Katyal stated, “I stayed up last night reading WP Engine’s Complaint, trying to find any merit anywhere to it. The whole thing is meritless, and we look forward to the federal court’s consideration of their lawsuit.”
> Our focus is and has always been protecting >the integrity of WordPress and our mission to democratize publishing. From our earliest days, our highest priority has always been our customers. WP Engine can hardly say the same.
mrkramer|1 year ago
[deleted]
nickff|1 year ago
https://www.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/comments/5l3hys/commen...
vcanales|1 year ago
fhfhfhjfnfnfmf|1 year ago
[deleted]