This is why they are striking against automation. Those 25K will be out of jobs. It's funny how conservative (anti-technology, stuck in the past, don't want to make anything efficient) labor unions end up being when it suits them.
It is the same with the cab companies. It took Uber and Lyft for them to lift a finger and actually attempt to innovate and make it better for customers.
You mean the remaining 25k will also be out of a job?
The article linked above doesn't go into detail on what container royalties are, but it sounds like it was a protection from being laid off negotiated in the past.
And in the context of AI so frequently discussed here, perhaps more workers will need those types of protections as automation takes hold elsewhere.
> It is the same with the cab companies. It took Uber and Lyft for them to lift a finger and actually attempt to innovate and make it better for customers
This is a complete rewriting of history.
The reason Uber "won" is because they operated on a loss. The reality is that running a Cab business typically has low overhead. You use phone lines, maybe a website, and then pay for cars and maintenance.
Uber "innovated" the field by doing the exact same thing with MUCH higher operating costs. How did they provide a cheaper service then? That's the kicker, they never have. They just ate the loss.
Cabbies, unfortunately, cannot work for a negative wage. Uber can pull that off then. And so, for 14 years, they never turned a profit. Losing hundreds of millions a year.
And that's how they won.
Of course, now Uber is actually more expensive than your average cab. Which makes complete sense when you consider calling someone's phone has got to be a lot cheaper than running one of the largest networks in the country.
And, is it really more convenient to tap around as opposed to make a call or even just stick out your hand? Maybe. But I think when it's double the price, people won't feel this way.
Speaking of cab companies/Lyft/Uber, etc now similar to striking unions, those companies have a vested interest to block public transit expansion because it's a direct competitor. It's always been like this; we have to balance things out and not give into regulatory capture.
Longshoreman unions are some of the most powerful and corrupt.
Even if you are pro-union, they have a history of attacking or undercutting other unions. The port of Portland Oregon was bankrupted because of a slowdown that was organized over two jobs they wanted to take from the electricians union.
The former president of the ILWU refused to recognize the AFL-CIO. The ILA president has mob connections.
"The Jobs Bank, established by GM in the mid-80s and adopted by Ford and Chrysler due to pattern bargaining, generally prohibited the Detroit automakers from laying off employees," the automaker said. "By the 2000s, Chrysler had over 2,000 employees in the Jobs Bank at a staggering cost. These employees were on active payroll, but were not allowed to perform any production work."
The Jobs Bank was set up by mutual agreement between U.S. automakers and the United Auto Workers union to protect workers from layoffs. Begun in the mid-1980s, the program is being tapped by thousands of workers. Many of those receiving checks do community service work or take courses. Others sit around, watching movies or doing crossword puzzles -- all while making $26 an hour or more.
On the other hand, layoffs shouldn’t be free for companies. These are people who have specialized skills, have setup their families in these areas, have mortgages etc.
What’s the alternative here? An alternative I can think of is a much stronger unemployment program on the federal level so layoffs don’t hurt the community. But this scheme not existing would’ve been devastating for the middle class.
People in greater society are not really an elastic resource.
That's a fairly thin article. The one note about how much these laid off workers are making is just an allegation aimed at less than 3% of the total number of laid off workers, not a value with any citations. It would help a lot if there were actual figures on how much the container royalties are.
And while ongoing payments are unusual, it's still basically a severance package. Those dock workers no longer work at the docks because they were let go due to automation. Do they have other jobs? Probably. The article doesn't provide any info about that either.
It is the NY Post though. So I'm not super surprised by the lack of substance, just allegations.
Do they ever work? The article notes that “as container ships have gotten larger, container volumes have often gotten less steady, with more peaks and troughs. Highly varying volumes might be more easily handled by a human labor force that can be scaled up and down as needed.”
Automation can be scaled up and down much more effectively than labor. You just turn off the machines when you don't need them and turn them back on when you do.
True in that container royalties is a thing, but stated so sensationally as to make it lying.
You don't get royalties for nothing. All the references I have been able to find, say you have to work some amount based on Union agreements but somewhere between 700 and 1500 hours per year, and you have to have worked at the port for at least 6 years. They seem to mostly be paid out as an end of year bonus. I haven't found anything that ballparks the amount so I have no clue how much money we are talking about.
.. watching two City workers having a meeting at a property right now.. it took more than two months to do three small repairs on the City owned lot.. one right now.. This same City is quite wealthy from property taxes and other sources here in western US coastal town.. Do these two City employees "sit home and collect money" ? Does orchestrated, planned and persistent foot-dragging with extra benefits, fall into the same outrage category as "these so-called dock workers" ? Both sets are employees.. the names are different but the outcome seems similar somehow? difficult to reconcile that one is publicly shamed, while the other gets stronger and more entrenched over time.
I agree, we and the union workers should vote in a government that helps people who lose their jobs to progress. After all, it's the job of a government, not a company, to serve the needs of the people.
If they were the International Longshoremen Company, nobody would find anything objectionable about that. They just negotiated a good contract. Good for them.
billy99k|1 year ago
It is the same with the cab companies. It took Uber and Lyft for them to lift a finger and actually attempt to innovate and make it better for customers.
causal|1 year ago
The article linked above doesn't go into detail on what container royalties are, but it sounds like it was a protection from being laid off negotiated in the past.
And in the context of AI so frequently discussed here, perhaps more workers will need those types of protections as automation takes hold elsewhere.
consteval|1 year ago
This is a complete rewriting of history.
The reason Uber "won" is because they operated on a loss. The reality is that running a Cab business typically has low overhead. You use phone lines, maybe a website, and then pay for cars and maintenance.
Uber "innovated" the field by doing the exact same thing with MUCH higher operating costs. How did they provide a cheaper service then? That's the kicker, they never have. They just ate the loss.
Cabbies, unfortunately, cannot work for a negative wage. Uber can pull that off then. And so, for 14 years, they never turned a profit. Losing hundreds of millions a year.
And that's how they won.
Of course, now Uber is actually more expensive than your average cab. Which makes complete sense when you consider calling someone's phone has got to be a lot cheaper than running one of the largest networks in the country.
And, is it really more convenient to tap around as opposed to make a call or even just stick out your hand? Maybe. But I think when it's double the price, people won't feel this way.
partiallypro|1 year ago
unknown|1 year ago
[deleted]
Workaccount2|1 year ago
There are no liberals or conservatives. Their are people with lives that share common traits and a policy set that suits those traits best.
Remember that Jesus (the generous saint of the needy) is the hero of conservatives and that liberals are the chief NIMBYs for affordable housing.
Nobody has lifelong rigid beliefs, it's all a matter of convenience. Everyone is in it for themselves.
*yes this is a generalization and you can find outliers. But don't let those outliers distract you from what is going on.
legitster|1 year ago
Even if you are pro-union, they have a history of attacking or undercutting other unions. The port of Portland Oregon was bankrupted because of a slowdown that was organized over two jobs they wanted to take from the electricians union.
The former president of the ILWU refused to recognize the AFL-CIO. The ILA president has mob connections.
coin|1 year ago
https://www.cbsnews.com/detroit/news/stellantis-uaw-lawsuit-...
"The Jobs Bank, established by GM in the mid-80s and adopted by Ford and Chrysler due to pattern bargaining, generally prohibited the Detroit automakers from laying off employees," the automaker said. "By the 2000s, Chrysler had over 2,000 employees in the Jobs Bank at a staggering cost. These employees were on active payroll, but were not allowed to perform any production work."
https://www.npr.org/2006/02/02/5185887/idled-auto-workers-ta...
The Jobs Bank was set up by mutual agreement between U.S. automakers and the United Auto Workers union to protect workers from layoffs. Begun in the mid-1980s, the program is being tapped by thousands of workers. Many of those receiving checks do community service work or take courses. Others sit around, watching movies or doing crossword puzzles -- all while making $26 an hour or more.
aaomidi|1 year ago
What’s the alternative here? An alternative I can think of is a much stronger unemployment program on the federal level so layoffs don’t hurt the community. But this scheme not existing would’ve been devastating for the middle class.
People in greater society are not really an elastic resource.
falcolas|1 year ago
And while ongoing payments are unusual, it's still basically a severance package. Those dock workers no longer work at the docks because they were let go due to automation. Do they have other jobs? Probably. The article doesn't provide any info about that either.
It is the NY Post though. So I'm not super surprised by the lack of substance, just allegations.
frankharv|1 year ago
We have like 4 different ports here plus Wind Project took over the old NIT port.
ForHackernews|1 year ago
JumpCrisscross|1 year ago
RobotToaster|1 year ago
Is that corporate speak for insecure employment?
fallingknife|1 year ago
tourmalinetaco|1 year ago
JoBrad|1 year ago
stonemetal12|1 year ago
You don't get royalties for nothing. All the references I have been able to find, say you have to work some amount based on Union agreements but somewhere between 700 and 1500 hours per year, and you have to have worked at the port for at least 6 years. They seem to mostly be paid out as an end of year bonus. I haven't found anything that ballparks the amount so I have no clue how much money we are talking about.
mistrial9|1 year ago
tivert|1 year ago
[deleted]
ImPostingOnHN|1 year ago
infamouscow|1 year ago
[deleted]
dauertewigkeit|1 year ago
avalys|1 year ago