[mrthrowaway999]

>> We ban books, scrutinize classroom libraries, demonize librarians, and demoralize teachers.

How true are these allegations?

For example, book banning. This source mentions that some books get banned from libraries: https://www.ala.org/bbooks/book-ban-data. But i assume all of these books can be obtained via a bookstore or online retailer. Even if someone argues that it puts books out of reach because of price, I cannot believe that since one can get used books from what for as little as $3-5, or 15 minutes of googling can give them access to PDFs and epubs to tens of thousands of public domain books or millions(?) pirated books that can be read on tablets and phones which have saturated everyone's hands.

I understand that removing books from a library is bad in principle. But pragmatically I can't see a problem with books being made in accessible.

[o11c]

I looked into book banning a while back and AFAICT the vast majority of it is universally agreed as necessary (and every "list of most-banned books" is an outright lie). It's just called "curation" instead of "banning".

Not many people complain if they can't find "Lolita" in their school library, let alone a thousand copycats with less historical relevance.

[hnbad]

Sure, you can call it curation but that implies that school libraries previously were filled arbitrarily by whatever random people dumped there. Libraries are always curated by definition.

What changed wasn't the addition of curation but the constraints of it. The reason entire school libraries were emptied following the "book bans" is that these laws often use poorly defined language to classify what content and topics are permissible or not in school libraries and this means all existing literature has to be carefuly combed through to decide on a case-by-case basis whether it violates the law, especially when the consequence of an "illegal book" carries a fine or worse.

It's similar to the abortion bans: the problem isn't just that they ban abortions, the problem is that what an abortion is is often poorly defined because there are plenty of scenarios where a pregnancy has to be terminated to prevent harm to the pregnant person but we wouldn't normally think of this as "getting an abortion". The vague blanket bans mean medical professionals need to get a legal opinion on every individual case because they face liability if the procedure turns out to have been illegal in that situation (and not, for example, if they had performed it 24 hours later even if the progression was predictable at the time).

The same is also true for teaching sex ed in states which use vague language like "age appropriate" or blanket ban certain behavior outside a strictly cis-heterosexual norm (e.g. a teacher telling her students she got married to her husband likely won't get her fired despite her disclosing her sexual orientation whereas a gay teacher might not be allowed to disclose theirs).

Even if you think the state should decide which books can go in a public school library or not, certainly having a central register that reviews each book and classifies it is more efficient and more manageable than just making every librarian or school individually liable if their library carries a book deemed inappropriate after the fact. After all, review boards already exist for films and TV.

[nineplay]

I would complain. If a kid has the ability and patience to read Lolita, who am I to stop them?

[nineplay]

If the discussion is specifically about school libraries, than I think it is absolutely legitimate to be concerned about which books are or are not banned. Many kids have easy access to school libraries, but not used bookstores or epubs.

- My own 14 year old has limited internet access and no account at any online retailer.

[apitman]

Is your 14 yo not allowed to go to friends' houses where they might have much more access to these things?

[tourmalinetaco]

The question is what “banned” books, if any, would you willingly expose your children to? You already curate their access to the Internet, what difference is there in the school or even state doing the same?

[jkestner]

The statement is about school libraries. Those alternative sources are not very accessible to children.

[chlodwig]

As far as I can tell, book banning means "Republican elected officials enacting imprecise rules to override to the curation decisions of tax-payer funded school librarians." Personally, I think that many school and city librarians have made egregiously bad curation decisions, but I think trying to legislate better curation decisions through broad guidelines is not the best way to go about fixing things.

[jmull]

> How true are these allegations?

You provide a source yourself that book banning occurs.

The problem with making books less accessible is that less people have a chance to read them.

Banning books is an effort to control the ideas other people are exposed to. That certain specific efforts aren't 100% successful doesn't make it unproblematic.

[mrthrowaway999]

The question is one of magnitude, not of simple occurrence.

My argument is that de facto banning has little or no effect on accessibility. I'm sure the described book bans have decreased the probability of certain books being read, but again, what is the magnitude of the change? If I were to guess, it's so small as to be almost unmeasurable.

[consumer451]

If I understand the logic of your argument, why then have libraries at all?

[mrthrowaway999]

You misunderstand my argument but I'm not sure which part of it is confusing.

[sickofparadox]

"Banned books" has always been an indulgent title put on books that have been banned from a handful of school libraries by busybodies, but never used for books so controversial that copies of them might as well be unobtainable.

[gjsman-1000]

> But pragmatically I can't see a problem with books being made in accessible.

Especially considering, most of these "banned" books (literally available everywhere else) are pornographic. Parents have been thrown out of school board meetings for reading their content out loud.

[ziddoap]

>Especially considering, most of these "banned" books (literally available everywhere else) are pornographic.

Where are you getting the data that most books are pornographic?

Only 22% of the books banned in the 2021-2022 school year contained sexual content. The definition of sexual content includes things like "informational books about puberty" (i.e. sexual content != pornographic).

[wizzwizz4]

There's a difference between “talking about sex” and “pornography”.

> So they made their father drink wine that night. And the firstborn went in and lay with her father. He did not know when she lay down or when she arose. The next day, the firstborn said to the younger, “Behold, I lay last night with my father. Let us make him drink wine tonight also. Then you go in and lie with him, that we may preserve offspring from our father.” So they made their father drink wine that night also. And the younger arose and lay with him, and he did not know when she lay down or when she arose. Thus both the daughters of Lot became pregnant by their father. (Genesis 19:33–36)

> Your lips drip nectar, my bride; honey and milk are under your tongue; the fragrance of your garments is like the fragrance of Lebanon. A garden locked is my sister, my bride, a spring locked, a fountain sealed. Your shoots are an orchard of pomegranates with all choicest fruits, henna with nard, […] Awake, O north wind, and come, O south wind! Blow upon my garden, let its spices flow. Let my beloved come to his garden, and eat its choicest fruits. I came to my garden, my sister, my bride, I gathered my myrrh with my spice, I ate my honeycomb with my honey, I drank my wine with my milk. Eat, friends, drink, and be drunk with love! (Song of Solomon 4:11–13, 4:16–5:1)

> How beautiful and pleasant you are, O loved one, with all your delights! Your stature is like a palm tree, and your breasts are like its clusters. I say I will climb the palm tree and lay hold of its fruit. Oh may your breasts be like clusters of the vine, and the scent of your breath like apples, and your mouth like the best wine. It goes down smoothly for my beloved, gliding over lips and teeth. (Song of Solomon 7:6–9)

> Yet she increased her whoring, remembering the days of her youth, when she played the whore in the land of Egypt and lusted after her lovers there, whose members were like those of donkeys, and whose issue was like that of horses. Thus you longed for the lewdness of your youth, when the Egyptians handled your bosom and pressed your young breasts. (Ezekiel 23:19–21)

— The Holy Bible (ESV) (famously not pornography)

And a honourable mention to the KJV translators, who – when faced with a double-meaning – took the literal translation:

> My beloved put in his hand by the hole of the door, and my bowels were moved for him. I rose up to open to my beloved; and my hands dropped with myrrh, and my fingers with sweet smelling myrrh, upon the handles of the lock. (Song of Solomon 5:4–5)

Idiomatically, “my bowels were moved” in the original Hebrew refers to a strong emotional response (ESV translates it as “my heart was thrilled”) – but considering the rest of this book, I have no doubt that the wordplay is intentional.

A book doesn't become pornography, just because the authors chose not to censor all references to / descriptions of sexuality. I understand keeping these books out of the hands of 6-year-olds, but by the time they've reached the age where their own minds are generating sexual material, I don't see the benefit of denying them a safe environment to explore such ideas (i.e., books). Most teenagers have more pressure (from their peers) to engage in actual sex than to read a particular library book. So… what happens when they're not aware of sexual consent, safe sex practices (e.g. condoms aren't just for contraception), or any kind of role model? (Hint: some effects are visible in the statistical tables.) I'm not sure what these bans are supposed to accomplish, other than make parents feel better.

[micromacrofoot]

are you equating all sex with porn here?