It really can't be underestimated either for children or adults how much we are dependent on ease of access.
If you're stuck in a room and the only thing you can do is read a math textbook you are going to do it. If you are stuck in a room and you have a math textbook and a novel you now have a choice.
A phone? A phone is everything else. You're putting "the thing we are supposed to be doing" and "everything else" in the same place. I can't even do it as an adult, I need to put my phone on the other side of the room if I want to read something proper.
> If you're stuck in a room and the only thing you can do is read a math textbook you are going to do it.
I would literally doodle, stare out a window, zone out daydreaming, or anything else other than read a textbook I didn't want to read for one reason or another, or pay attention to a teacher for that matter.
Yes, it is anecdotal, but I'm sure we've all been children before, and even if you didn't do it, people around you surely did if you paid any attention. For god sake, I remember my classmates just using a lighter on small patches of whiteout ink during one specific class because of how bored they were. Extreme example? Yes. But passing papers, making paper planes, and other crafts, literally anything to pass the time.
This isn't exclusive to children either. If an adult doesn't want to do something, they might very well not unless forced to, and even then.
Btw, I'm not trying to argue about banning or not banning a phone, this is specifically about the statement above.
EDIT: I should probably mention that this isn't a 5min thing, I could easily zone a teacher out for 45min-90min blocks if I didn't care about what they had to say, much less a book I didn't want to read.
> If you're stuck in a room and the only thing you can do is read a math textbook you are going to do it.
I'm not so sure if this is true. No clue about kids, but if I'm (personally) stuck at the office and I'm really not feeling like working, I can literally stare at a wall daydreaming rather than do something. And the contrary is also true - if I'm "stuck" at some fancy place with lots to do (like home, lol) but feel like working (and have means to do so), there's no stopping me.
I suspect the problem isn't the phones, the problem is lack of honest, genuine interest. Compliance can be enforced, but I'm not sure about efficiency of learning under duress. Compulsion brings aversion.
This, of course, is a purely idealistic view, assuming ideal high-skilled spherical educators in vacuum rather than actual real-world conditions. While there are always ways to captivate interest and steer it into productive learning, it requires some orders of magnitude more resources than what's available.
"If you're stuck in a room and the only thing you can do is read a math textbook you are going to do it. If you are stuck in a room and you have a math textbook and a novel you now have a choice."
Nope, even then it was easier for me to stare at walls or daydream. That never worked for me :(
> It really can't be underestimated either for children or adults how much we are dependent on ease of access.
nit: If you mean to say these groups are so dependent on ease of access it's impossible to estimate correctly to what degree, you mean it can't be overestimated, not underestimated.
It's not just smartphones, same thing can happen with any computer connected to the Internet, any computer NOT connected to the Internet (video games), a television, radio or even a Walkman (the last 3 typically not being an issue for the classroom for obvious reasons, but still potentially a tempting distraction to not do whatever you are supposed to be doing). Heck, even books / magazines can become that in some situations.
I use my phone to look up words/concepts/references all the time while reading - I couldn't do without it, flipping through a dictionary or walking up to a computer to read a quick Wikipedia intro to a concept/person/place/etc would just get me far more distracted.
I tried leaving a stack of programming books beside my pc while I'm working and putting my phone in another room. It does work. But I keep forgetting to do it.
I was considering trying a month of no I internet browsing unless it is required for my job or learning.
Reminds me of my time in boarding school, my grades were awesome there and I read alot cause I can't play video games, unfortunately it didn't make me wiser so I struggled a lot with self discipline later on.
It has always felt absolutely bonkers to me that smartphone bans weren't put into place instantly across US schools as soon as they started becoming common.
I grew up in the 80s and 90s. If I'd brought a handheld game console like a Gameboy or something into class, it would have been confiscated immediately. Sure, I get it, that's not the same thing; obviously phones have other uses.
But there is absolutely zero reason a kid needs their smartphone during class. All educational materials should be provided by the school. Kids do not need to be and should not be communicating with anyone outside class. If parents/guardians need to get in touch with kids during an emergency, they can do it the way they've done it as long as we've had the telephone: call the main office and have someone walk to the class to bring the kid to the phone.
I do expect that smartphones could actually bring something useful to the classroom -- after all, they grant access to more or less all the world's knowledge -- but the downsides of allowing them far far far outweigh any possible upsides.
There’s a lot of reasons where possessing a phone in school is legit. In cities, transit passes are commonly phone bases. Some apartments require smartphones for gate entry.
Agreed, and they shouldn't need to be instituted, because they were already policy, weren't they?
I had a CD Walkman during high school. Was smart enough to never to bring it out unless everything else in class was done and neighbors had nothing to say.
I brought a Nokia 3210 to class in 2000s. It was fine. Technically it was prohibited by school rules but nobody cared. As long as you didn’t do anything stupid.
Maybe it's a translation issue, but it seems in this article that the effect on school work (i.e. tests, quizzes, reports, homework assignments, etc.) was not studied, as I think the title of the article implies it was. Rather, they studied the phone ban's effect on school culture and bullying.
To be clear, I believe a phone ban in schools would have a positive effect on academics, and that that would show up if it were studied. It's just that it doesn't seem like that's what they did in this case. Thus, arguing about whether phones affect attention span, memory, even reading time, is not relevant in the context of this article.
Academic performance is somewhat of a burning fire - I'd guess there is less of a translation issue with the article than a cultural and political issue around the topic.
Is it just paired with his phone that he has access to on the weekends?
Asking because I've thought about this before (younger kids) but I don't think the AW operates standalone and I didn't want to pair it with my phone.
Some schools ban phones but allow laptops and tablets. It is the phones specifically that are the problem, not social media. (apparently)
My phone usage dropped after I got a personal laptop and an eBook reader. So did pretty much every one else's. The phone is just really inconvenient for anything other than doomscrolling.
In my opinion, the lack of alternative activities is overlooked. It is a ban and a prayer that the problem will solve itself.
Phones are ok as communication devices though, even if it's only "lunch half twelve 2nd floor canteen?" to a coworker. Whether schools need that or not is another question, though "Mum can you check did I leave my maths book on the desk?" via whatsapp seems to be a thing these days.
There's nothing magic about phones that makes them bad. It's mostly the content on them: social media. Which people here earn money hand over fist making more addictive and then wonder how it all happened. I was in high school right around the first iPhone. Kids got good at T9 texting but it wasn't anything like now I guess.
It should've been expanded into driving a long time ago. There are laws against distracted driving but I still see people weaving around like they're drunk on the roads. When I look into the car they're usually holding a phone (on speakerphone) or holding it up to their ear.
People suck at driving enough as it is without driving one handed and distracted.
Weddings in particular seem to have evolved "check your phone at the door" policies. Though perhaps mostly to keep folks from ruining the professional photographers shots by constantly diving into the action with cameraphones/flashes blazing...
A lot of interesting debate on phone bans right now. Including a great discussion on twitter about how some of the research being used to justify bans is using some dodgy stats: https://x.com/MatthewBJane/status/1843795198109000034
On the reading question raised by another comment: I went to school recently enough that we had smartphones but before tiktok. You were allowed them but they'd be confiscated if seen in lessons or corridors.
On balance I'd probably try and get rid entirely, but vividly recall my academic/engineering/whatever awakening being from downloading huge quantities of textbooks and the like onto my phone at the age of 14 or 15, so I wouldn't go stray too far away from modern technology in some sense.
I could also argue that this made me quite distracted but (say) also meant that it was the best part of a decade until I would see something, conditioned on that I found it interesting, that I hadn't seen before in formal education.
I have a 16 year old nibbling. Very popular. They shared their phone social life with me just last week. They have 2200 unread text messages and 700 active Snapchat conversations. Not a great student. At home, never comes out of their room. Up past midnight on their phone.
There’s no way allowing them access to their phone during school allows for any schooling to happen. This is what the school system is up against (in certain kinds of privileged high tech communities).
They may already be too old for a hard shift, and it’s too enabled by their home life situation, but their school career already feels set.
I've been thinking about going back to a dumb phone. Somehow I always find myself using my smartphone in a way that I regret. Wasting time. Staying up too late. Mindlessly snacking while scrolling. Checking for new dopamine hits whenever I get a few moments to spare.
If I were an alcoholic, would it be a good idea to walk around with a bottle of liquor in my pocket?
Has anyone here tried the Haidt recommendation of "no smartphones till high school, no social media till 16" with their children? Is it better than just banning them in school?
I don't dispute the facts in the article, but this question kept popping up in my mind: how do they define reading time? I mean, in a too-pedantic sense, smartphone screen time is roughly divided into reading, viewing (photos/videos), and gaming. Given that they are not allowed to take the phones, it seems unlikely that the school knows a student's primary usage mode. For example, a student could be reading a bunch of fiction on their phone, thereby reducing their time in the school's library.
In other words, how holistic is the metric "reading time?"
I have a middle school student and have observed this trend personally. Our school is considering a cell phone ban during school hours (can still bring the phone to school, goes in locker, get it on the way out), which I 100% support.
We use parental controls on iOS but those are buggy (and Android even worse from what I heard).
I am a bit surprised that there is no mention of academic performance, which would be the most obvious indication for a successful policy.
Instead, what the article basically says is that banning phones results in kids spending less time on the phone, which is an improvement if your idea of an improvement is having kids do things that don't involve spending time on the phone. There is some circular reasoning here.
Note that I am not against the idea that phone bans have positive effects on general well being, academic performance, etc... but for me, this article doesn't sell it very well.
Boredom is the main driver of productive pursuits and creativity. That’s why the current dependence on phones and FOMO on general worries me. It is far too easy now to unproductively kill time.
Glad to see phone bans become more popular. Jonathan Haidt had it on his list of suggestions to parents, to avoid the anxiety generation continuing. He had a longer list but the four big ones were:
There used to be a Silicon Valley parents versus not divide in my personal observation of kids with smart phones/tablets. It’s now generalised to a class division: the children of the rich tend to have tight restrictions at home and, increasingly, at school, around device use.
We need statewide rules if we’re to avoid creating a generational gap in cognitive and social competence.
[+] [-] naming_the_user|1 year ago|reply
If you're stuck in a room and the only thing you can do is read a math textbook you are going to do it. If you are stuck in a room and you have a math textbook and a novel you now have a choice.
A phone? A phone is everything else. You're putting "the thing we are supposed to be doing" and "everything else" in the same place. I can't even do it as an adult, I need to put my phone on the other side of the room if I want to read something proper.
[+] [-] lemoncookiechip|1 year ago|reply
I would literally doodle, stare out a window, zone out daydreaming, or anything else other than read a textbook I didn't want to read for one reason or another, or pay attention to a teacher for that matter.
Yes, it is anecdotal, but I'm sure we've all been children before, and even if you didn't do it, people around you surely did if you paid any attention. For god sake, I remember my classmates just using a lighter on small patches of whiteout ink during one specific class because of how bored they were. Extreme example? Yes. But passing papers, making paper planes, and other crafts, literally anything to pass the time.
This isn't exclusive to children either. If an adult doesn't want to do something, they might very well not unless forced to, and even then.
Btw, I'm not trying to argue about banning or not banning a phone, this is specifically about the statement above.
EDIT: I should probably mention that this isn't a 5min thing, I could easily zone a teacher out for 45min-90min blocks if I didn't care about what they had to say, much less a book I didn't want to read.
[+] [-] drdaeman|1 year ago|reply
I'm not so sure if this is true. No clue about kids, but if I'm (personally) stuck at the office and I'm really not feeling like working, I can literally stare at a wall daydreaming rather than do something. And the contrary is also true - if I'm "stuck" at some fancy place with lots to do (like home, lol) but feel like working (and have means to do so), there's no stopping me.
I suspect the problem isn't the phones, the problem is lack of honest, genuine interest. Compliance can be enforced, but I'm not sure about efficiency of learning under duress. Compulsion brings aversion.
This, of course, is a purely idealistic view, assuming ideal high-skilled spherical educators in vacuum rather than actual real-world conditions. While there are always ways to captivate interest and steer it into productive learning, it requires some orders of magnitude more resources than what's available.
[+] [-] grakker|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] consf|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] StefanBatory|1 year ago|reply
Nope, even then it was easier for me to stare at walls or daydream. That never worked for me :(
[+] [-] pengaru|1 year ago|reply
nit: If you mean to say these groups are so dependent on ease of access it's impossible to estimate correctly to what degree, you mean it can't be overestimated, not underestimated.
[+] [-] BlueTemplar|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] hinkley|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] exe34|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] pipes|1 year ago|reply
I was considering trying a month of no I internet browsing unless it is required for my job or learning.
[+] [-] erebearalte|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] UltraSane|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] thiel_is_hitler|1 year ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] kelnos|1 year ago|reply
I grew up in the 80s and 90s. If I'd brought a handheld game console like a Gameboy or something into class, it would have been confiscated immediately. Sure, I get it, that's not the same thing; obviously phones have other uses.
But there is absolutely zero reason a kid needs their smartphone during class. All educational materials should be provided by the school. Kids do not need to be and should not be communicating with anyone outside class. If parents/guardians need to get in touch with kids during an emergency, they can do it the way they've done it as long as we've had the telephone: call the main office and have someone walk to the class to bring the kid to the phone.
I do expect that smartphones could actually bring something useful to the classroom -- after all, they grant access to more or less all the world's knowledge -- but the downsides of allowing them far far far outweigh any possible upsides.
[+] [-] Spooky23|1 year ago|reply
In class, different story of course.
[+] [-] mixmastamyk|1 year ago|reply
I had a CD Walkman during high school. Was smart enough to never to bring it out unless everything else in class was done and neighbors had nothing to say.
[+] [-] thiel_is_hitler|1 year ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] charlieyu1|1 year ago|reply
Banning smartphones is such a boomer thing
[+] [-] karaterobot|1 year ago|reply
To be clear, I believe a phone ban in schools would have a positive effect on academics, and that that would show up if it were studied. It's just that it doesn't seem like that's what they did in this case. Thus, arguing about whether phones affect attention span, memory, even reading time, is not relevant in the context of this article.
[+] [-] fleb|1 year ago|reply
https://www.oecd.org/en/publications/pisa-2022-results-volum...
https://icelandmonitor.mbl.is/news/news/2023/12/05/concernin...
Academic performance is somewhat of a burning fire - I'd guess there is less of a translation issue with the article than a cultural and political issue around the topic.
[+] [-] agrippanux|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] mh-|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] hed|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] nixpulvis|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|1 year ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] andrei-akopian|1 year ago|reply
My phone usage dropped after I got a personal laptop and an eBook reader. So did pretty much every one else's. The phone is just really inconvenient for anything other than doomscrolling.
In my opinion, the lack of alternative activities is overlooked. It is a ban and a prayer that the problem will solve itself.
[+] [-] insane_dreamer|1 year ago|reply
disagree; it's the social media that's the problem; the phone just makes it possible to access it at all times
remove social media and you won't have kids on their phones all the time (or, if you're very lucky, they might use them for something productive)
[+] [-] red_admiral|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] hooverd|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] consf|1 year ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] seydor|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] dopylitty|1 year ago|reply
People suck at driving enough as it is without driving one handed and distracted.
[+] [-] eloisius|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] ruthmarx|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] swiftcoder|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] countrymile|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] mhh__|1 year ago|reply
On balance I'd probably try and get rid entirely, but vividly recall my academic/engineering/whatever awakening being from downloading huge quantities of textbooks and the like onto my phone at the age of 14 or 15, so I wouldn't go stray too far away from modern technology in some sense.
I could also argue that this made me quite distracted but (say) also meant that it was the best part of a decade until I would see something, conditioned on that I found it interesting, that I hadn't seen before in formal education.
[+] [-] browningstreet|1 year ago|reply
There’s no way allowing them access to their phone during school allows for any schooling to happen. This is what the school system is up against (in certain kinds of privileged high tech communities).
They may already be too old for a hard shift, and it’s too enabled by their home life situation, but their school career already feels set.
[+] [-] HomeDeLaPot|1 year ago|reply
If I were an alcoholic, would it be a good idea to walk around with a bottle of liquor in my pocket?
[+] [-] dash2|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] docfort|1 year ago|reply
In other words, how holistic is the metric "reading time?"
[+] [-] insane_dreamer|1 year ago|reply
We use parental controls on iOS but those are buggy (and Android even worse from what I heard).
[+] [-] andrewinardeer|1 year ago|reply
A teacher has a bad day and a kid films the teacher crying? It's all over the socials and teacher is mocked.
A kid has a bad day and throws a chair through a window while the teacher films it? Teacher is likely sacked for filming kids at school.
[+] [-] GuB-42|1 year ago|reply
Instead, what the article basically says is that banning phones results in kids spending less time on the phone, which is an improvement if your idea of an improvement is having kids do things that don't involve spending time on the phone. There is some circular reasoning here.
Note that I am not against the idea that phone bans have positive effects on general well being, academic performance, etc... but for me, this article doesn't sell it very well.
[+] [-] ein0p|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] blackeyeblitzar|1 year ago|reply
No smartphones before high school
No social media before 16
No phones in schools
More free, independent play
[+] [-] 0dayz|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] tootie|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] JumpCrisscross|1 year ago|reply
We need statewide rules if we’re to avoid creating a generational gap in cognitive and social competence.