[desertraven]

In regard to watching the mind, one thing I’ve observed is a little strange, and I was hoping to get other’s experiences.

I like to watch the movement of my attention. Nothing abstract, just to observe where attention is aimed - it takes a mere 30 seconds of watching.

What I’ve noticed, is it moves around, seemingly without my input, and lacking any conscious intent (a concept the blog post makes a point to reclaim).

The light of attention shines throughout the physical scene, but it is sensorily multidimensional. It might move to the pain in my back, or the sound of the frogs, or the mug on my desk, a random memory, or more relevant to the article, the latest arising thought.

I am watching this movement of ‘my’ attention, and yet I seem to be playing no part in the neither the objects of attention, or the movement of attention itself.

This isn’t to say I cannot decide right now to move my hand in front of my face and observe it, but this arising of intention is itself mysterious too.

[yoble]

In Buddhism this is linked to the central concept of Dependent Origination: things arise in dependence on other things, everything is conditioned by something else.

This includes movements of attention: attention is drawn to a sound perception because a frog makes a sound, then conditioned on interest being high interest dwindles, conditioned on that plus nerves shooting in the back a sensation catches the attention, it goes to a thought of planning that appears conditioned on you having a deadline tomorrow...

Even the arising of intention to move the hand arises at that moment conditioned on other things (that include you playing around with your perception a moment ago, pre-existing view around how decision work and wanting to prove it, having a hand...)

Looking for conditionality in everything we might identify with - thoughts, perceptions, intention... - is a central practice in numerous schools of Early Buddhism, and can lead to a deep, deep sense of letting go, inhabiting a flow of things "just unfolding", and classical insights around what our sense of self actually is.

[Disruptive_Dave]

"I am not my thoughts." Or, as I prefer, "these thoughts are not mine." Experience that over and over again and everything gets a little easier, a little clearer. That's when the detachment from thoughts begins.

[padraigf]

I meditate a good bit, an hour a day, and it doesn't stop thoughts arising, so I've had some time to think about this.

My guess is, it's just an evolutionarily useful thing, for your brain to keep pinging you about various things.

It doesn't mean of course that meditation is not useful. But you want to have control over these thoughts. Without a meditative practice, it's all too easy to allow your consciousness to be consumed by these impulses (which can lead you astray).

[MrMcCall]

The best we can do with them is to "pay them no mind", i.e. just let them pass though us and then into the void of non-effect. The important understanding is that we can choose to act upon them or ignore them. Ignoring negative impulses is essential for developing compassion as a way of life, and doing so is no less than warfare, the most important we can ever undertake. Of course, if the impulse is "you left the burner on", you should make sure it's not going to cause a fire! Discernment of the flavors of streams that present themselves to our consciousness is sublime and the work of our lifetime.

I made the Bhodisattva Vow nearly 30 years ago, and am now a very happy person with a very happy family, though we have lived in poverty for ~15 years now. Ask me how ;-)

Side note: I lived with yoga practioners and know of the possible dangers therein, so I highly suggest that you add a mantra of positivity to your practice. My experience is that the best are the various two syllable names of our Creator, to accompany your heartbeat. Such mantras are the best baseline for us to fall back into within the busyness of this 21st Century life, but choose what makes you feel happy, for happiness is within the grasp of our every choice.

With love and friendship.

[Lanzaa]

Observing where attention is aimed is a form of meditation. What you observed is something I have experienced as well. It is normal and expected.

I have enjoyed reading "The Mind Illuminated" by John Yates. The book is a meditation guide and includes descriptions of experiences like yours.

[lowyek]

It's not very scientific but ->

I feel I am an abstract mesh of "virtual sensory nodes" inside the network of my brain. These nodes are free flowing in the abstract multi-dimensional network - but in varying degrees of freedom. While the inner core of this abstract sensory entity is the "me" I have total perfect grasp on, the outer nodes sway here and there a little bit. When I start meditating - I start to access the information touching these outer sensors. They are by default moving "a little", I just get more aware of them. But I being the core of this entity, can easily sway them to any other place.

I guess meditation is fun.

[space_oddity]

The mystery of intention and attention also invites reflection

[MrMcCall]

Yes, indeed, but a study of the streams of thoughts and feelings that barge into our attention is more obviously fruitful to our improving our personal and collective well-beings. Learning how to discern negative/selfish/callous/viceous impulses from the positive/selfless/compassionate/virtuous ones is at the heart of the meaning of life and the purpose of our mind's abilities, as well as the human race's future.

I can't recommend Castaneda's work, but it does present interesting perspectives on intention and attention, even if I'm not sold that he was an honest or accurate or even well-intentioned narrator. That said, the character of Don Juan conveys much wisdom, but are the books allegorical fiction or fantastical non-ordinary-but-actual reality? I don't know yet, and maybe I never will.

[criddell]

> I like to watch the movement of my attention

I've never really liked the present-tense expression of this idea. If you are watching your attention, is that you directing your attention at your attention? Can you step back again and watch yourself watching yourself watch yourself?

Or is it really a past-tense thing where you notice that your attention has drifted?

[kranner]

Not GP, but I'll relate my experience. Your attention is always automatically attending to something. You can learn to attend to your attention continually while you're functioning normally in real life. Maintaining this light noticing of what we're noticing, reveals the attitudes of the mind to various objects as we go through our lives. It's a very interesting state to abide in. This is known as the Cittanupassana practice, one of the Vipassana practices described in the Satipatthana Sutta.

[desertraven]

Try it and you tell me! ;)

In answer to your question, it’s hard to explain. But no, I don’t find it possible to step back again and observe that meta process. I just tried.

And it is definitely a present-tense action.

It may be that it is merely as you say, directing attention to attention, but it doesn’t diminish the free-flow experiential aspect of the exercise, or the intellectual curiosity.

Just to flesh out the experience, if I’m not paying attention to my experience, attention is still wandering all over the place, I’m just “in it” so to speak, and not noticing. When I observe it happening it has a very different quality to it.

Not to get esoteric, but the best way I could describe it is that there seems to be some observing faculty seperate to the usual sense of self. Which might explain why the exercise can’t devolve into an endless paying attention to paying attention to paying attention…

[hammock]

Isn't "watching the movement of my attention" another way of saying "being in the present"? To include body scans, etc.

[eightysixfour]

Sam Harris makes the point that this, our actual observable experience, is the strongest argument against free will.

[andrei_says_]

One of Advaita’s (nonduality) pointers is to observe one’s choices and find this independent/free will we believe we have.

I’ve watched my choices for about a decade now and have not been able to find anything like independent choice.

Everything I observe is dependent on something else (genetics, conditioning, environment, external or internal event), or a manifestation of a preference, currently active desire, emotion, thought or need.

Once I noticed that these are all spontaneous or predetermined I can no longer see the concept of “free will” as anything but an unpacked box containing a bunch of phenomena.

Another pointer of Advaita is that our brains tend to hold a view of a free will universe, or a pre-determined universe - which is a limit of the mind not the universe itself :)

[insaider]

Highly recommend his meditation app 'Waking Up' in which he explains and teaches these concepts better than any source I've yet found

[MrMcCall]

And yet he cannot explain where the impulses come from.

As to argument against free will: do you not have the ability to choose between giving the next homeless person you see some money or being rude to them? Of course you do. You are also free to believe and then claim that the world is flat, but that don't make it true.

We can each choose to be compassionate, callous, or cruel -- to whomever we choose, to whatever extent we choose. The choices most people make are usually no more than the inertia of our cultural inheritances, which are, themselves, usually born of generational ignorance of the importance of active compassion and service to others' happiness.

The inertias of our world cultures are rife with ignorance of the fact that the happiest people are those that care for those around them. Of course, if worldly success is your only benchmark, then you are free to choose Musk's or Trump's path to "success", but you aren't going to find happiness there, no matter how easy it is to climb that ladder in this world's assbackwards value system. I challenge you to look at Jimmy Carter's or MLK's smiles for observable experience. Such a smile is earned and evidenced over our lifetime as obviously as a tree's growth rings reflect its experiences. Ours are indicative of our cumulative choices, for we are the only beings on Earth that have a moral compass and the imperative to choose accordingly.

[keybored]

I would agree that Sam Harris is most probably a robot.

[MrMcCall]

Excellent. Amazing what we programmers have time to explore while we stare at our screens as we try to "work" ;-)

Overall, as human beings in 2024, we are advanced technologically, but not spiritually (yet).

At the basis of our being is the most etheral and fundamental of our connections to the multidimensional universe, which we are a part of, ofc. That pair are our free will and our mind. We use our mind to control our free will, which we use to choose what we do with our physical body.

What you have noticed is that our inner world is always experiencing external thought impulses that seek to direct our attention this way and that; for most of us, we merely let it lead us as it suggests.

Note that what I describe here is born of my Sufi tradition's teaching, but can also be found in a much different sense in Carlos Castaneda's very bizarre and dubious books, which I read many times in my younger years, and have yet to validate as true, but have found to contain many valuable lessons (useful allegory or strange reality? idk which yet).

Regardless, we are multidimensional creatures in a multidimensional universe, that contains six onion layers of differing vibrational planes, one of which our physical bodies inhabit, and another our energy bodies inhabit (our souls). Another pair contains sources of thoughts/feelings that are suggested to our mind as courses of action. Our job as the only moral beings of our plane is to ascertain their positivity/negativity and act according to loving positivity.

One negative example of our reality is the child's urge to steal a candy bar, but we can see a more deleterious example in cultures that have adoped falsehoods as a foundation of belief (they are particularly dangerous here in America now). Note that we are free to choose to believe in anything whatsoever, no matter how untrue or ridiculous. It takes a lifetime of careful consideration to hone one's ability to know truth from falsehood, which is part thoughtfulness and part feeling. One cannont develop that ability without committing oneself to a life of compassion. (Finland is directly teaching its children about misinformation; good job, Fins!)

As to the physical multidimensionalness of the universe, 5/6th of the universe is dark matter, as the matter in the other layers of the onion do not directly interact with ours but yet (somehow -- I don't know the details yet) still affects the combined gravity (as evidenced by our measurements of galactic inertia). Dark matter is undetectable in our plane because we only have our plane's members to do the detection, but high-energy physics experiments can cause fleeting cross-over between the planes (I do not understand the details) since de Broglie (IIRC).

It's a huge topic, so I'll stop here, but my contact info is in my bio, and let me wrap with saying that we are not forced to become better or worse in terms of our contribution to the well-being of our fellow human beings and the Earth, itself, but a progression towards becoming utterly compassionate bearers of truth is the entire puspose of the "spiritual path", regardless of which flavor. Do note, please, that the liars of the world lose their ability to discern the truth, as a result of their abandoning compassionate service to humanity, which requires learning and living the truth of compassionate existence through choice.

You can also find a horrific example of what I describe here in the life of the Golden State Killer's, who describes how his being was invaded by an external entity that compelled him to do the awful things he did. The negative impulses we experience have the purpose of making creating unhappiness via the ramifications of our choices, both for ourselves and those around us. If you consider this carefully, you will begin to understand why the world is so polluted, is dangerously heating, and is filled with oppressors and the misery they inflict. It is our widespread ignorance of the truth of our beings that has left us mostly at the mercy of the selfish impulse-stream, instead of the drive to compassionately serve the happiness of others. The important fact is that we can each choose compassion as the basis for our choices, and that there are ways to purify our moral compass to effect a more perfect integration with the greater good.

Note that this is also the only path to personal peace and happiness, because karma is a fundamental law with our human-only moral plane. It is human-only because only we make moral choices in this physical plane. And all our choices affect all other human beings, to some level, and billions of us sure do add up.