[e63f67dd-065b]

With educational pricing this thing starts as $500, and at 16GB of RAM (finally) I think this easily beats any sort of desktop PC you can buy at that price (let's exclude custom builds, they're not the same market).

I think this just became the go-to recommendation I'll give to anybody wanting an entry-level desktop computer of any kind. In fact I might buy one for my parents right now to replace the old mac mini they have. I really can't think of any reasonable competition for it at that price.

[architect64]

One issue to watch out for: Sub-4K res monitors look surprisingly bad on newer versions of macOS with Apple Silicon Macs. And no, it's not simply a matter of non-Retina obviously not looking as nice as Retina monitors - something like a 1440p monitor will look much worse on macOS than it would on Windows or Linux. This is partly caused by a lack of subpixel rendering for text on macOS, but it doesn't affect just text, with app icon graphics and such seemingly optimized for High-DPI resolutions only and thus looking awful too. You commonly see people using 3rd party apps such as BetterDisplay to partially work around this problem by tricking the system to treat 1440p displays as 5K displays and then downscale, but it doesn't solve this completely. So yes, the price for the machine is fantastic, but you may want to budget for a basic 4K display as well.

[mr_toad]

> you may want to budget for a basic 4K display as well

Best investment you’ll ever make. They’re not all that expensive. Having experienced 4k I feel impoverished having to return to lower resolutions.

I feel it’s a travesty that workplaces spend thousands on fancy desks and chairs and cheap out on bargain basement monitors.

[anemoknee]

Is this with newer Apple Silicon Macs? My 2020 M1 Mac Mini looks unremarkably normal on my 1440p display. I'm also going between that and my 14" M1 Pro Macbook Pro, which of course looks beautiful but doesn't really make the 1440p on the Mini 'bad'.

Edit: Adding that both of these machines are now running macOS 15.1 at this time.

[seec]

This is the biggest issue with Mac hardware at the moment. All because of a decision to make it easier for their developers (and 3rd party too I guess) to be able to claim they figured out high-DPI before everyone else.

It comes at a large cost now, either more money than reasonable for one of the few compatible displays or accept a much worse experience, that is just not good for devices of this price. This is why a big affordable iMac is so necessary, but TC's Apple likes money too much to care about their legacy customers.

After such a long history of Mac OS having better font rendering and in general better graphic stack (Quartz, everything is basically a continuous PDF rendering) feels like a big letdown.

The problem is going to improve as more high-DPI displays are released for sale but it has taken a lot of time because most customers like to focus on other characteristics that are arguably more important for other use cases. There are plenty of premium display that are just good to great but you really have to think how it will work if you buy a Mac, most likely you'll need to compromise, feels bad considering the price of admition...

[stogot]

My silicon Mac is fine on 27” 1080 10 years old display

[baq]

Can confirm, you absolutely need BetterDisplay and a tiny bit of elbow grease to configure the 5k clone to downscale to your real monitor. Not rocket science, but could be more streamlined.

If you say it looks fine without it, I don't know what to say.

[calf]

Is there a review that demonstrates and corroborates this issue? Is it a difficult problem if choosing to buy a new display for a Mac mini? My old display is 10 years old and I would have to get a new one then.

[theideaofcoffee]

My 7 year old QHD monitor pair through a M1 Pro MBP still looks fantastic. Then again, I do spend most of my day in apple Terminal, but I'm not really in want of anything more. Some other sibling comments are saying Windows 10/11 looks crappy, and I agree, as I have to occasionally switch between the two, I just don't like working in Windows anymore, mostly because of the poor display.

[vondur]

If you have a 1440P 27" monitor, they work great.

[bni]

No, it looks great on my 1440p OLED. Windows on the other hand in old Control Panel for example it looks like ass.

[culopatin]

There is an app called better display that almost solves this. Has a mode that renders things at higher res and fixes the text blurring

[dogcow]

Came here to echo this. Also, it always amazes me how many people respond to warnings like this (as seen in this thread as well) saying lower-resolution displays look just fine. I returned a M2 Mac Mini solely because it looked so awful on all of my monitors -- I tried 2 different 32" 2k displays, plus a handful of 24" displays. Everything was fuzzy and awful looking. Not something that could be tolerated or ignored... Completely unusable. I feel like this fact is not well known enough.

The fact that so many seem to tolerate "low-res" or "mid-res" displays on the current M-series Macs is really puzzling to me... maybe my eyesight isn't as bad as I thought it was and everyone else's is a lot worse!?

This new M4 mini is tempting enough that I might try a Mac again... but this time I am definitely going to have to budget for a 4k/5k display.

[myrandomcomment]

Honestly I am going to say skip 4K and just go to 5K. They are not that much more. I have 2x5K setup and it is great. The main monitor is normal orientation and the other is mounted on the left at a 90 rotation centered on the side of the first. I keep my work on the main and all the documentation, chat, etc. on the vertical one. I hope to be able to ditch the 2 monitor setup next year and go to a single 8K display.

[7e]

4K displays are the new standard. I can buy a 27" IPS 4K display from LG for $200. Anything lower res. is a boomer screen; get rid of it and move on.

[stalfosknight]

Non-Apple displays have awful PPI, even the allegedly high-DPI ones.

[goosedragons]

There's still good deals in mini PC land. Yes, the M4 is faster but there's loads of mini PCs with decent CPUs, 32GB RAM and a 1TB of SSD storage for under $600. I think for a lot of people for basic usage they'll get more value out of the larger and upgradable SSDs than the faster CPU.

https://www.amazon.com/BOSGAME-5700U-Displays-Computers-Emul... https://www.amazon.com/Beelink-SER5-Desktop-Computer-Graphic...

[gymbeaux]

I bought one of these once. The specs on paper look good, but the CPUs are weak. They’re like those U series Intel CPUs where you could get say an i7-7700U, with 4 physical cores and 8 total threads, but at 15W TDP you were never really going to benefit from the 4 cores and 8 threads.

[chipdart]

> Yes, the M4 is faster (...)

I know a couple of iOS developers who recently switched to a M4 MacBook pro and they swear that in some frequent workloads it feels sluggish and slower than the old Intel MacBook pros. Being RAM-starved might have something to do with it though.

> but there's loads of mini PCs with decent CPUs, 32GB RAM and a 1TB of SSD storage for under $600.

I also add that, unlike Apple hardware, these miniPCs are built with extensibility in mind. For example, most NUCs from the likes of minisforum and Beelink ship with a single SSD but support multiple SSDs, with their cases also having room for SATA drives. They even go as far as selling barebones versions of their NUCs, where customers can then pick and choose which RAM and SSDs to add.

[celestialcheese]

From my experience, TCO on most apple products ends up being roughly the same when you factor in resale value.

You'll be able to sell your M4 mac mini in 5 years for $150 for an instant-cash offer from backmarket or any other reseller, while you'd be lucky to get $30 for the equivalent Beelink or BOSGAME after 6 months on ebay.

[paulcole]

> I think for a lot of people for basic usage they'll get more value out of the larger and upgradable SSDs than the faster CPU

Why exactly?

What are a "lot of people" storing on their computers these days? Photos are in the cloud or on our phones. Videos and music are streaming. Documents take up no space. Programs are in the cloud (for the most part).

[digitaltensor]

None of them have a proper HDMI 2.1 FRL port that is needed to run a 4k 120Hz monitor. Likely because the Iris Xe / AMD equivalent does not support it, and dedicated ITX GPUs are expensive. This isn't a problem with M4.

[Tempest1981]

BOSGAME and Beelink... who makes the motherboards?

Nice size. The Beelink has better reviews. Any name brands?

[srid]

Which mini PC is recommended for those looking to run Linux (as a server, not desktop) on them?

[heraldgeezer]

I would agree, but try and buy Dell, HP and Lenovo instead imo.

[supportengineer]

But you have to run Windows, which is a deal breaker for most people.

[sangnoir]

> I think this easily beats any sort of desktop PC you can buy at that price (let's exclude custom builds, they're not the same market).

This is squarely in the NUC/SFF/1l-pc territory, and there is plenty of competition here from Beelink and Minisforum.

I just found the Beelink SER7 going for $509, and it has an 8-core/16-thread Ryzen 7 CPU, 32GB DDR4. The 8845 in the beelink is very competitive[1] with M4 (beaten, but not "easily"), and also supports memory upgrades of up to 256GB.

1. https://nanoreview.net/en/cpu-compare/apple-m4-vs-amd-ryzen-...

[tmikaeld]

When you factor in memory bandwidth (80GB/s for DDR4) - that's not even close to the M4 (120GB/s base model).

[LeoPanthera]

There's a huge difference there. Those PCs have to be ordered from Aliexpress, or some other Chinese site, or else from Amazon via a third party resellers that adds their own markup on top.

Neither gets you any kind of useful warranty, at least for most people, who are unwilling to deal with overseas companies.

Apple has actual physical stores, and a phone number you can call.

[TomatoTomato]

Where can you get 2x128gb sodimms?

[huijzer]

Do note only 256 GB of storage. Should be enough for most people, but at the same time can become very annoying once it gets full.

[setgree]

We can reasonably expect

1) external storage to become faster and cheaper every year (subject to constraints around interface)

2) more and more digital assets to be cloud-native, e.g. photos stored exclusively on icloud and not on your computer

So I'm less worried about storage than some. If Asahi Linux achieves Proton-like compatibility with games [0], then we're getting closer to the perfect general purpose game console.

[0] https://asahilinux.org/2024/10/aaa-gaming-on-asahi-linux/

[_mlbt]

It’s a desktop, so plugging in a USB external hard drive isn’t too painful or expensive.

[holografix]

This is a conscious tactic so X% of customers say yes to using iCloud storage

[brundolf]

Genuine question: why do your parents want a desktop?

These days the only reasons I see to get a desktop are

1. You need some combination of power/thermals or expandability

2. Kiosks, public computers, etc

3. Cost? Maybe?

For pretty much any regular person in my life who's open to a mac, I'd point them towards a MacBook Air

[syndicatedjelly]

I’m a mid 30s developer and I use a mac mini for all my hobby development. I’m planning to get a m4 mini to replace my current m1 mini. I like hooking up my own monitor and peripherals - I don’t like working hunched over a small screen and crunched keyboard. Plus, a m4 mac mini with 32GB RAM is only $999 - the most closely spec’d Macbook Air (on an M3, with 24GB RAM) is $1299. and then the m4 Macbook Pro with 32 GB RAM is $1999. So your last point about cost - why should I throw away an extra $1000 for no reason?

[thesmok]

People want a desktop because they

1. can use a smartphone for all mobile tasks

2. see better on a large screen

3. are more comfortable with a mouse than a trackpad

4. don't have to worry about spilling tea on a laptop or dropping it on the floor. A keyboard is cheap to replace if that happens.

[tharos47]

IMHO it's not as NUC style mini PCs with x86-64 CPUs from AMD and intel are really cheap and the 256Gb storage is way too small making the "real" price $200 higher for any sort of moderate usage.

[zackymacky]

Help me understand the $500 starting price? I see $1250 starting price on pre-orders from the education store.

[plushpuffin]

That’s for the model with the M4 Pro chip.

Mac mini with M4 starts at $599 (U.S.) and $499 (U.S.) for education.

Mac mini with M4 Pro starts at $1,399 (U.S.) and $1,299 (U.S.) for education.

[xiasongh]

From the article

> Mac mini with M4 starts at $599 (U.S.) and $499 (U.S.) for education. Additional technical specifications are available at apple.com/mac-mini.

[timeon]

> With educational pricing I think this easily beats any sort of desktop

> go-to recommendation I'll give to anybody wanting an entry-level desktop

Can anybody get it with educational pricing?

[ikety]

yes, there's no verification system. You simply just state that you are a student

[kridsdale3]

If you enroll in a college.

[chipdart]

> I think this easily beats any sort of desktop PC you can buy at that price

Not really. Do a quick googling for cheap miniPCs from brands such as minisforum or Beelink. Years ago they were selling Ryzen5 and Intel i5 with 16BG of RAM for around $300. No "educational software" bullshit either, just straight from Amazon to anyone who bothered to click on a button.

[kwanbix]

Sure, if they are used to macOS, this is a great option.

But I wouldn't recommend it to people who are not used to it.

I tried to recommend Linux, with XFCE setup as basically windows, and people complain. Same for ChromeOS.

[ChumpGPT]

>I think this just became the go-to recommendation I'll give to anybody wanting an entry-level desktop computer of any kind.

Perhaps you should check out some Beelink and GMKTec Mini PC Systems.

[rootusrootus]

Then you have to factor in supporting those systems, because you will be the one they call. This is one of the major upsides to family & friends buying Macs.

[heraldgeezer]

I thought the same, sadly regional pricing…

For half that price I can get a used Dell/HP/Lenovo mico/tiny PC with a full i7 CPU, 16GB RAM, 256SSD.

Still good to see. Great for an office PC or HTPC.

[userbinator]

It's a proprietary locked-down "computer", closer to an iPhone or iPad or other smartphone than a standard PC.

[kalleboo]

If you can install a third-party OS without exploiting a security bug, then it's not "locked-down".

[throwaway48476]

It's only a good deal so long as you don't pay for any of the extortionate upgrades.

[HumblyTossed]

Wish I still had a .edu email address...

[ikety]

You don't need one. There's just a checkbox asking you to pinky promise that you actually are a student

[anoncow]

Imagine the used market. An amazing computer for just 300 usd is possible. Apple is doing amazing.

[laserlight]

Are you aware that i9-9900K was launched six years ago [0], two years before Apple Silicon? It's nothing to compare to an Apple M4.

[0] https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/sku/186605/...

[whynotminot]

… you see how massive that comp you posted is, right? You see it, don’t you?

You’re comparing a used Tower to an Apple TV sized device.

[zemvpferreira]

It's not really reasonable to compare prices of a used machine with a new one though.

[nozzlegear]

> I don't think Apple fanboys understand

Why start off by calling people fanboys? It seems like you're looking for an argument instead of a genuine conversation.

[supportengineer]

Microsoft Windows is a non-starter though.

[thelittleone]

That ebay link is a used item.

[piuantiderp]

Half as slow and this is just in general CPU. Not getting into power efficiency, noise, size... etc... etc....

[butterlettuce]

sigh another Windows fanboy pushing inferior hardware for an inferior OS.

The lot of us grew out of gaming in our teens and do real work now.

[reaperducer]

And when something goes wrong, I can just walk into one of the hundreds of eBay, Amazon, or HP stores around the world for free help?

I don't think Windows fanboys understand real people care about more than numbers.